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The Free Software Foundation is dying

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Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#171

Post by dralley »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

What is more important, the mission of Free Software, or making him President for life?

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#172

Post by dale_glass »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

The FSF is a public organization with a mission to change the world. That's literally the purpose of its existence, not to be Stallman's group of friends. Also every day it fails to be effective makes fulfilling its mission harder, because the rest of the world doesn't wait for it to catch up.

Sure, we can recognize that Stallman had very significant achievements that merit recognition, and accept that not everyone can keep on producing amazing work until they keel over. But that's in the context that's outside of being an active leader. That he did a good job before doesn't mean there's not a job now that still needs doing well.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#173

Post by the-smug-one »

worg wrote: post #127
jmclnx wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me google that for you https://forums.linuxmint.com/viewtopic.php?t=377054 There was an article on a new lenovo model that you cannot install linux on, but to lazy to look for it. Quote from a lonk: >Lenovo says Microsoft requires they block Linux from booting on such PCs. ... ... >This has nothing to do with better security. It is simply about restricting consumer choice by making it more difficult to install so…

From the same forum post: > To be able to boot Linux on such PCs you need to either disable secure boot in the BIOS or you need to enable the "Allow Microsoft 3rd Party UEFI CA" option in the Security section of the BIOS. it's not like they're blocking completely the ability to install Linux, anyone installing Linux should be able to follow those steps. Don't get me wrong I'm no Lenovo/MS fan but spreading FUD is not…

Sure, but that is essentially putting in a gate that will make Linux desktop never be anything but for hardcore users.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#174

Post by p1esk »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

If he’s old, and can no longer be effective in his role, why shouldn’t he retire and let someone else lead?

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#175

Post by dragonwriter »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

> You believe you will never grow old?

Part of growing old is handing things over to other people to carry on.

> Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don’t have the same energy as you had when you were 20?

I don’t think the FSF is intended to be Stallman’s personal support network first and foremost, and I particularly don’t think that is the premise it has used in raising funds. To the extent that the FSF has become that, that's an even more serious problem.

> The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be “open source” in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licenses, if it wasn’t for him.

If we were talking about “should Stallman be inducted into the (hypothetical) Free Software Hall of Fame?” sure, but that’s not the issue.

> Sure, you can look at a person’s mistakes only, but you could also look at all the good a person has done.

Leadership roles aren’t about the good you have done but about the good you can be expected to do in the role.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#176

Post by alwaysbeconsing »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

Nobody said we should put him out on an ice floe, dismiss his achievements, or ignore his contributions. The point parent and the essay made is to ask what his new achievements have been. We can respect the work he has done in the past while questioning whether he is contributing well to the work that needs to be done now.

In fact many accomplished leaders themselves recognize that they need to be succeeded by a new person at some point. They can retain an emeritus status and participate in the discourse while allowing the baton to pass. Since we all die at some point, this is in truth necessary for a movement or organization to continue.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#177

Post by iso1631 »

amno wrote: post #170
dralley wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? Because even before the controversy, it seems like he: * Presided over and actively contributed to the decline of GCC and gave up the world of compiler-based-tools and compiler research to LLVM by insisting on making it impossible to use GCC as a library. Pissed off the emacs maintainers in the process. * Pissed off the glibc maintai…

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

I think the point is that he should have been succession planning 25 years ago and taking a back seat from 2005 onwards, certainly as phones and XAAS became important in the 2010s

He's been proven right about most things, but he can't convince people to save his life, and that's a major problem because we stand to continue to lose essential freedom.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#178

Post by iso1631 »

einpoklum wrote: post #113

This post is mostly wrong, wrong, wrong. > Hammering on about “GNU/Linux” nomenclature Linux is just a kernel, not an OS. It was bundled with the GNU system, which was missing a kernel. See explanation here: https://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html For many years you could use Debian over the FreeBSD kernel, for example - having the GNU system, plus a bunch of non-GNU software, over another kernel. These days, mayb…

> These days, maybe we should call them GNU/systemd/Linux systems :-(

Quite. Is xorg GNU? xfce? Firefox? vim? gnumeric? (just looking at things on my desktop at the moment). Looking at pstree nothing particularly screams GNU. A few utilities like set and tar, but only 123 of the 3715 packages "dpkg -l" shows are GNU.

Historically certainly GNU was a key part of the typical machine, and the GPL is a brilliant license (although has clearly been hacked by SAAS companies hence requirements for things like AGPL) and the FSF is certainly a key part of the history of how we got here from there.

But to pretend that GNU is a particularly significant part of the typical linux machine (presumably because of the presence of libc), compared with half a dozen other organisations, is not particularly honest in my view.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#179

Post by amno »

kmeisthax wrote: post #110
jmclnx wrote: post #4

>It’s time for Richard Stallman to go I was expecting to see this, there is nothing more corporations would like more then to see him gone. Then they can take full control of the FSF, already they have their hands in it. So far many of his predictions have come true and there are a few more that seems to be on their way to happening. What FSF should do is work stop the move to secure boot. Already there are Intel Lap…

You're referring to this all in the wrong tense. Corporations don't need to replace Richard Stallman because they already got Eric Raymond to replace his entire movement with the "apolitical" version: the Open Source Initiative. This happened decades ago. RMS warned us about it, we didn't care. The dystopia in Right to Read also happened decades ago: it was called the Nintendo Entertainment System. Less toy-like exam…

> Social media is how a lot of political activism happens, for better and for worse. But as far as I'm aware the FSF does not have a presence here.

Indeed. People in the inner circle around RMS do not use social media. They are either genuinely uninterested, or for the political reason does not want to use anything that includes non-free JavaScript or other non-free technologies, where non-free is defined by the GNU project, i.e. the GPL compatible license.

> Now, let's contrast that to right-to-repair.

Because that is something that people can immediately "feel".

I believe people should become more aware that free software, or at least, open source software, is important for democracy and freedom. How can you ever have freedom if whomever wish can spy on you and control what you say? Can you have free elections if your vote is manipulated? How can you ever be sure if machines run closed source software only very few chosen ones have access to? How can you ever know what happens in the world and make informed decisions if there is no free information. Can we trust any information and software if it runs closed source binary blobs? I believe that the only way to solve this is to make laws that demand open source software to be used in software of public importance.

Re: The Free Software Foundation is dying

#180

Post by amno »

p1esk wrote: post #174
amno wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What significant, tangible accomplishments does Stallmann have in the past 15 years? You believe you will never grow old? Do you wish your family and friends to turn back on you because you are old and don't have the same energy as you had when you were 20? The question is how the landscape would look like today and if there even would be "open source" in the broader sense as we see it today, with permissive licens…

If he’s old, and can no longer be effective in his role, why shouldn’t he retire and let someone else lead?

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