Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019) • Hacker News Board

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#41

Post by est » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

rippercushions wrote: post #12

PostOnce wrote: post #6

There is a reason people still read Sun Tzu 2500 years later, and it's not because he's been on a press tour promoting his book. The man was a consummate master of his art, if he was indeed one man. My favorite reading of The Art of War, because Baldermort has an awesome voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDlW3WqXisM

The article notes that Sun Tzu's celebrated victory over the Chu was very short-lived, since the Chu remnants promptly allied with the Qin and the Yue to roll them back within two years, and his Wu clan was entirely exterminated within three decades.

> and his Wu clan was entirely exterminated within three decades

Literally said in Chap. 3 from the Art of War:

supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy’s resistance without fighting.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#42

Post by zakki » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 7:52 AM UTC

eimrine wrote: post #3

For me Sun Tzu is the first man who told something atheistic. He told that no god can predict or help in the combat. Very impressive as for 500 b.c.

I think he meant god with lowercase G not God with uppercase G.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#43

Post by chaostheory » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:01 AM UTC

I’m not sure how Sun Tzu is complete garbage when his strategies were vague and often not specific, so you can adapt them according to the situation

To me the problem is that the study of war, like the study of economics or any other social study; isn’t a real science. There is no repeatable theoretical model, including The Art of War. There are no universal laws that always hold true in all situations.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#44

Post by thaumasiotes » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:09 AM UTC

est wrote: post #40

hzay wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a modern way of thinking. Ancient wisdom never comes with citations. But I'm happy to be proved wrong.

> Ancient wisdom never comes with citations Because writing in the past is really expensive and a heavy-duty work. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bamboo_book_-_binding_-_U...

A book produced in the 18th century is an odd choice to illustrate that idea.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#45

Post by PostOnce » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:25 AM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #31

PostOnce wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay let us suppose there are three probable reasons for such a book to be chosen as mandatory reading: because it is right, because it is wrong, or because it is historically important as a landmark in the history of military thought. I believe it is the first of those three. Many books have been written since that are now outdated, while The Art of War is not.

> let us suppose there are three probable reasons for such a book to be chosen as mandatory reading: because it is right, because it is wrong, or because it is historically important as a landmark in the history of military thought. You might have better luck with some actual reasons. Assuming you're right and then complaining that nobody believes you even though your assumptions plainly show that you're right isn't…

Instead of just asserting that I'm wrong and that there is some elusive and esoteric reason I am overlooking without actually stating it, you could just state it, and then, theoretically, if you are right, I and all the other readers would be better off...

I'm willing to change my mind, but you're not giving me anything to change it to.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#46

Post by gjvc » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:36 AM UTC

runlaszlorun wrote: post #28

As both a former army officer as well as someone who appreciates historical Chinese, it pains me to say that I found it underwhelming. I’m not saying that any one on here is like this, but in my experience it def attracts a certain type who, among other things, have a zero sum, “business is war” mindset that’s a tad creepy. Unlike everyone I know who has actually served .

plenty of people on here are like this!

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#47

Post by orwin » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:42 AM UTC

PostOnce wrote: post #14

rippercushions wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article notes that Sun Tzu's celebrated victory over the Chu was very short-lived, since the Chu remnants promptly allied with the Qin and the Yue to roll them back within two years, and his Wu clan was entirely exterminated within three decades.

I think this is like applying the "If you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" logic to war; it's a multifaceted thing, you can do everything right and still lose. It wouldn't still be mandatory reading at war colleges the world over if it didn't still have merit, or if it had no merit to begin with.

I mean, Clauswidtz is a way better reading, with less vague information, still a bit wrong concerning modern warfare (although Russian seems to use it). And his teaching were applied effectively multiple times, with success, even during ww2. A bit dryer and less applicable for young edgelords. And more than half the St-Cyr (officer school) I knew/talked to fit in this category ten years ago, I doubt it changed much.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#48

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 8:59 AM UTC

runlaszlorun wrote: post #28

As both a former army officer as well as someone who appreciates historical Chinese, it pains me to say that I found it underwhelming. I’m not saying that any one on here is like this, but in my experience it def attracts a certain type who, among other things, have a zero sum, “business is war” mindset that’s a tad creepy. Unlike everyone I know who has actually served .

Sun Tzu's work was aimed at nobled who had zero experience and knowledge in warfare; a lot of it is low-hanging fruit, but you have to build up the basis for these things like "make sure your soldiers have food" and "don't tell your opponent what you're up to" in these people.

It's why I don't understand why in the US, the president is also the top military commander. I'm sure they have good advisors and the good ones have done their homework, but it's not their profession in the end.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#49

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 9:00 AM UTC

zakki wrote: post #42

eimrine wrote: post #3

For me Sun Tzu is the first man who told something atheistic. He told that no god can predict or help in the combat. Very impressive as for 500 b.c.

I think he meant god with lowercase G not God with uppercase G.

That doesn't refute the comment you're replying to though.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#50

Post by Cthulhu_ » Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 9:01 AM UTC

lordnacho wrote: post #16

Finally. I remember reading Sun Tzu and thinking "hmm all this stuff is either very specific to ancient China, or unsubstantiated". As in, everyone sounded like distilled wisdom, but it smelled. The thing that was missing I think was that normally when you read a text about something that's trying to make a general point, it cites a whole bunch of historical precedents. "Always drive deep into enemy territory, like X…

It was a primer aimed at first-time commanders (e.g. coddled nobility with zero experience), not an in-depth thing. That would take a more formal education.

It's like the popular science blogs of its age.