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Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

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Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#4

Post by _8j50 »

From what little I know Sun Tzu has a lot of "good rule od thumb" wisdom but you shouldn't stick to what he says as if he is infallible.

For example:

> The greatest victory is that which requires no battle

He says a lot of stuff like that but this is only true if your aim is peace in the near term and appearances of victory. The carnage of war, the worse it is the more it avoids even more war. If you win without battle then others will keep starting more battles because why not? But if you defear your enemy well and in the most horrific way then it becomes unthinkable to willingly start a battle or war with you. Even in the middle of war, a great and terrible victory demoralizes the enemy but a victory with no bloodshed only delays when the next battle will happen since you only won a battle and not the whole war.

I could pick many examples from WW2 and the ensuing peace we enjoy to this day (relative to before that time). Or how the US sabotages and enables regime changes all over without actual (at least acknowledged) conflict but time and time again it only delayed and worsened the threat.

My philosophy is that you should never start a war except as retaliation of an actual attack or immediate and impending attack (NK firing missiles not Iraq is about to get missiles). But if you start a war it is your duty to finish it fast and without witholding your aggression so long as that aggression contributes to preventing even more aggression from your enemies and resentment from your people (US and country building/preserving in a time of war in vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq comes to mind).

Happy to be corrected and educated on this. My point is that if you are not careful you can interpret that one teaching of his to mean you should avoid battle as much as possible. And a few others I have thought about are also like this. Surprising your enemy or deceiving them is not always the best idea either, what is more terrible to your enemy than telling them you will cause enormous damage at a specific date and time and doing exactly that despite their desperate attempts to counteract that, it crush their spirits and allow you to decieve them later on more effectively.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#5

Post by soulofmischief »

eimrine wrote: post #3

For me Sun Tzu is the first man who told something atheistic. He told that no god can predict or help in the combat. Very impressive as for 500 b.c.

And a touch of chaos theory, turbulence and all the ideas that itself builds upon. He recognized that sufficiently complex dynamic systems are impossible to fully predict due to physical constraints.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#6

Post by PostOnce »

There is a reason people still read Sun Tzu 2500 years later, and it's not because he's been on a press tour promoting his book. The man was a consummate master of his art, if he was indeed one man.

My favorite reading of The Art of War, because Baldermort has an awesome voice: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDlW3WqXisM

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#7

Post by labster »

_8j50 wrote: post #4

From what little I know Sun Tzu has a lot of "good rule od thumb" wisdom but you shouldn't stick to what he says as if he is infallible. For example: > The greatest victory is that which requires no battle He says a lot of stuff like that but this is only true if your aim is peace in the near term and appearances of victory. The carnage of war, the worse it is the more it avoids even more war. If you win without batt…

I think that quote is just a corollary to this one:

"War is the continuation of policy with other means." — Carl von Clausewitz

A foreign policy that achieves your aims is better than a foreign war; a functional domestic policy is better than a civil war. But sometimes people won’t compromise and the only policy left is war.

Re: Notes from a Sun Tzu Skeptic (2019)

#9

Post by wolpoli »

deafpolygon wrote: post #8
smitty1e wrote: post #2

Sun Tzu's chief virtue, and weakness, is brevity. Compared to Clausweitz, Sun Tzu would have been a Twitter guru, inviting the question: So, what?

I can see it now: Sun Tzu's The Tweets of War

And if Sun Tzu is alive today, he would be offering paid access to exclusive podcasts, videos, and more.
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