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Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

vigneshwarar.substack.com

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Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#71

I am often faced with a dilemma when trying to decide whether to vote on a particular post or comment. There are times when it is very informative, well written, and you can tell a lot of thought went into it; but I happen to disagree with the author's point of view. The same occurs when I agree with the author's sentiment, but the comment itself is poorly written and not well argued. There is only a single up/down v…

I think it's probably better to just upvote well-written or well-argued comments whether you agree with the author's point of view or not. Makes for a more interesting place where people occasionally change their minds.

I was going to say that the HN guidelines advise doing this, but I cannot actually find anything about what an upvote 'means' on HN. Plenty about what makes a good submission, or a good comment, but nothing on voting. Maybe they just gave up on trying to do that!

The above notwithstanding, I would like to see something like your proposal implemented, just to see how it works out empirically.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#72
post #70
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This makes it very hard to catch up later on an article’s comments My biggest complaint related to this is that all threads are dead within 24 hours, which kills a lot of interesting discussion. And commenters have no incentive to reply to dead threads. This discourages in depth back and forth conversation which I usually find is the most interesting.

And even if someone replies to you specifically, the only way you would know is noticing your karma increased on the top right of the page.

Someone replying to your comment doesn’t change your karma points. Someone upvoting your comment may probably increase your karma points (the may probably is because of the undisclosed algorithms that attempt to compensate for gaming the system).

In other words, looking at karma won’t tell you whether someone replied to your comments or not. There is nothing on HN to indicate replies unless you dig into your comments history. There nay be other sites or browser extensions that could help on getting notified.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#73
The article mentions a couple of formulas for the ranking algorithm. I'd like to point out my data-driven reverse-engineering of the HN ranking algorithm from 2013. The basic ranking formula uses votes and age with various exponents. But in my analysis, I found that "penalties" had a large effect on the ranking. Some penalties are applied automatically based on title words or the domain. Other penalties would be applied later. Too many comments would trigger the "controversy" penalty which would cause a sudden and drastic ranking drop.

Link: https://www.righto.com/2013/11/how-hacker-news-ranking-reall...

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#74

I am often faced with a dilemma when trying to decide whether to vote on a particular post or comment. There are times when it is very informative, well written, and you can tell a lot of thought went into it; but I happen to disagree with the author's point of view. The same occurs when I agree with the author's sentiment, but the comment itself is poorly written and not well argued. There is only a single up/down v…

The dilemma you face stems from the ambiguous nature of the upvote button:

1. As an "agree" button - you upvote to get the perspective you share to be displayed more prominently to other people. It is a way for you to influence other readers.

2. As "it was useful to me and a good use of my time" button. You use it because you think other users will find it informative as well. In this case you are doing purely for the benefit of others.

3. As "it made me laugh or evoked some other emotions" button.

All three could be viewed as different dimensions of content and one item/comment can have different combinations along these dimensions.

It is complicated by the fact that content creators are actively optimizing their content along these dimensions to gain more visibility.

When I come to HN, as a reader, I want to see mostly informative content - which is only dimension 2. I don't want to be influenced or persuaded. And while I enjoy a good laugh - that's not my goal coming to HN. This makes the other two content dimensions contribute to noise.

Your suggestion to split out the upvote into separate labels like "agree", "informative" and "funny" [1] and to let users sort by the dimension of their choice may not solve the problem of separating "agree" from "informative" because there is no incentive for the voters to vote truthfully. People who upvote content they agree with want other people to see that content. If most users are sorting by informative then those voters will upvote content they agree with using the "informative" button.

I think you need to change the system of incentives in order for voters to upvote only informative content and not 1 and 3.

One way to do this is to make what you upvote have more consequences for the type of content you see in the future and less directly affect the ranking of that content for all users [2]. With a feedback loop like this the upvote button is no longer "what content do I want other people to see", but "what type of content do I want my future self to see". It makes you think before voting - "Was it worth my time?", "Is this kind of content aligned with my long term goals?"

[1] - Slashdot has something like this: "funny", "interesting", "insigthful" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slashdot#Peer_moderation but I don't think you can sort by it. Also, only a subset of users are given these moderator points.

[2] - I'm building https://linklonk.com that works this way.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#75
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"…would provide weird incentives like frequent comments, or higher volume, could rank a person higher than if they had occasional comments further down the thread." I know I'll be out of step with most who comment on HN but I question the necessity of having a ranking/voting system at all. All it seems to do is to act as an ego booter for commentators and it messes up orderly discussion when people insist on posting…

I agree with you mostly (and will give you an upvote). I think we've seen enough to understand that upvotes and downvotes are dolled out based on how well a comment agrees or disagrees with the voters preconceived notion of whatever the topic is. I also question the concept of 'hiding' comments. Are my eyes so delicate that I can't see certain comments by default? It seems like just a feature that exists to bias subs…

I believe hidden comments can be seen if you enable showdead, and if you do so you'll learn why they are hidden (they add virtually nothing to discussions).

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With 100% certainty dang ("Dang") read this comment.

I would be really happy to know his thoughts.

This: https://www.newyorker.com/news/letter-from-silicon-valley/th... https://archive.ph/V9z3G is as close as you're likely to get.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#77
post #55
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a group of people that abuse the flag button…until one was made that didn't mention his cause of death I’m not sure that I’d characterize this as abuse. HN stays interesting by avoiding flame bait topics and part of the realization of the community guidelines happens via this flag feature. One way to reframe #1 is that the community’s self-moderation features are working as designed, and that any…

> that any post about Bob Lee’s death that somehow editorializes it or positions it in a way that is likely to lead to political debates is against the site guidelines and thus were removed appropriately. A lot of discussions on HN lead to discussions of government policies (both U.S. and foreign) when there's a connection to the story, including saying that certain policies lead to the death of individuals. There's…

I think we're discussing different things. I agree that plenty of discussion tends to touch on those subjects, and in the 2020s, it seems increasingly difficult to separate them from many aspects of our lives. But those discussions are in a very literal sense exceptions to the rules based on their relevance to the tech community. And mentioning the cause of death was not forbidden.

The initial post about Bob Lee was split off into two, so one could remain focused on remembering Bob for who he was [0], and the other could explore the surrounding circumstances [1].

With that said, the site guidelines are pretty clear:

> Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon ... If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

> Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. That tramples curiosity.

So this will often boil down to the framing. If the title is tinged with political implications, that's quite a bit different than mentioning the cause of death.

The circumstances surrounding Bob Lee's death are relevant to quite a few readers here, and so there was a discussion about it. But a default assessment of any given submission if weighed against the guidelines should assume that such content is off-topic, unless there's a reason to believe otherwise (as there was in this and cases like the one you cited that are close to the tech community).

Even with that separation, there was quite a bit of discussion that was clearly far outside of the guidelines in that thread.

- [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35457341

- [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35448899

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#79

I am often faced with a dilemma when trying to decide whether to vote on a particular post or comment. There are times when it is very informative, well written, and you can tell a lot of thought went into it; but I happen to disagree with the author's point of view. The same occurs when I agree with the author's sentiment, but the comment itself is poorly written and not well argued. There is only a single up/down v…

The LessWrong forum has a split between "upvotes/downvotes" and "agree/disagree votes" to address this.

In practice, it doesn't really seem to affect outcomes that much, but it's a cute feature.

Re: Hacker News Ranking Algorithm

#80
I recently launched a tool called HN+

https://hn.plus

It's a tool where you can create your own HackerNews clone. Obviously, while working on this, I had to emulate the HN ranking algorithm. But what I found is that the algorithm actually doesn't seem to work well for a "young" forums.

I had to tweak it so that on the frontpage, the posts that are more relatively recent rises to the top over older posts of higher votes. I know these are considered in the original algorithm, but I had to tweak it.

Which made me think that the algorithm should be considering the age of the community and also how active it is.

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