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With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

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Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#61

Post by readthenotes1 »

emacsen wrote: post #56
recoveredtoday wrote: post #31

Guy checking in here that was super skeptical of AA, tried everything else including minimization, psychology, etc. 10 years sober today as a direct result of finally surrendering my ego and walking into the room and giving it a try. From my "class" I'd say about 25 - 30% of us have made it to this milestone so far. No two people are built the same is the truth, if you've tried and failed elsewhere don't be dissuaded…

No one is saying that 12 step doesn't have any successes, but: 1. The data is somewhat overwhelming that the rates of success aren't 25-30% as you said, but closer to 7%.[1] This puts it in roughly the same category as no 2. No one is dismissing the idea of doing 12 steps, but 12 steps is often court mandated. 3. 12 Step has more than passing connections to "faith-based" treatments. This is a problem when it's court…

"But unlike AA, I would never claim that what I've suggested is right for everybody. But ... let's say I had nothing better to offer: It wouldn't matter — we still need to change the system as it is because we are harming 90 percent of the people."

It is difficult to tell if those are the words of the NPR author or Lance dodes who wrote the book, but it directly contradicts your statement

"2. No one is dismissing the idea of doing 12 steps"

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#62

Post by recoveredtoday »

emacsen wrote: post #56
recoveredtoday wrote: post #31

Guy checking in here that was super skeptical of AA, tried everything else including minimization, psychology, etc. 10 years sober today as a direct result of finally surrendering my ego and walking into the room and giving it a try. From my "class" I'd say about 25 - 30% of us have made it to this milestone so far. No two people are built the same is the truth, if you've tried and failed elsewhere don't be dissuaded…

No one is saying that 12 step doesn't have any successes, but: 1. The data is somewhat overwhelming that the rates of success aren't 25-30% as you said, but closer to 7%.[1] This puts it in roughly the same category as no 2. No one is dismissing the idea of doing 12 steps, but 12 steps is often court mandated. 3. 12 Step has more than passing connections to "faith-based" treatments. This is a problem when it's court…

All very good points

My message was less a general response

Vs a note to any struggling HNs that 12-step shouldn't be dismissed out of hand

My upbringing, education, peers, research into the data generally would have had me write off AA

Glad I didn't and gave it a try (after trying many other things)

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#63

Post by jjulius »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #58
jjulius wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... and bury the fact that the majority of the shooters are on SSRI's and a host of other medication. Can you please cite a source for this? >It's because when you peek behind the curtain, you find they're just a form of culturally acceptable medicine men. "Here, take these pills and it will solve all your issues! No we don't have any idea what 'chemical imbalance' is happening, or even if it's happening, but that's…

[flagged]

>Sounds like "sources" serve two purposes: 1) validate what people already want to hear...

"Sounds like" and "is" are two different things. I'm actually quite open-minded and happy to be shown that that is actually the case. I have no opinion one way or another whether or not it is, but it's quite a tall claim and I'm simply curious as to it's accuracy. Knowing whether or not it's true would absolutely help to improve my understanding of that issue.

>... and 2) provide a road block for opposing arguments to prevent having to discuss them.

See above, regarding open-mindedness. Data's data - if your claim is right, your claim is right.

>No, I won't provide "sources".

Alrighty then, enjoy your day.

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#64

Post by readthenotes1 »

bbatha wrote: post #44
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah...been hearing this stuff for 42 years. I could probably make an entirely convincing argument as to why you shouldn't try it. That's because I've heard it all. If you don't want what we have ... no worries. You won't get it. The problem is when we make decisions for other people. Things look very, very different, when it's our own butt on the line.

> The problem is when we make decisions for other people. Things look very, very different, when it's our own butt on the line. Which is precisely what this article is complaining about. AA both as a program and as cultural push "abstinence first" is harming addicts for which the AA method is not successful. Which is most people. For instance drug therapies are slow to be given approval, people are sent to AA program…

What is more effective than AA?

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#65

Post by readthenotes1 »

prohobo wrote: post #60
specproc wrote: post #7

As someone who's been on his own journey with alcohol and hung out in a few sobriety forums (/r/stopdrinking is brilliant), I've seen a very clear difference between the 12-steppers and other people who are quit/quitting/moderating. I found the framing of the AA folks to be a lot more extreme. Problematic alcohol use is frequently described as an incurable, progressive disease. There's also this heavy focus on guilt…

I think AA "accidentally" provides people with strong community support - a basic need, the lack of which often leads people to... well, drink. AA fulfills that need, and maybe the 12 steps themselves don't work, but the community does. That's why so many people swear by it and have success with it. So yes, it'll be a little culty, because those are the principles of this particular community, but I think it's far mo…

It is no accident, otherwise going to meetings wouldn't be an essential part of it

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#68

Post by boplicity »

somewhereoutth wrote: post #57
boplicity wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> instead it assumes it's 'all your fault' Actually, that assumption is very much not part of AA, and very much not part of the 12 steps as they're usually understood. For example, take step 1. "Admit you have a problem." You seem to be saying that admitting a problem is the same as blaming oneself. NOT TRUE. In fact, one of the most important things to acknowledge is that it's not your fault. It's just a disease. An…

but 4) 5) 6) are exactly blaming yourself. Indeed, they seem to focus on the bad things you have done (to others) as a result of your addiction, but with nothing about the cause of the addiction itself. Agree with step 1) - and 2) in many cases - but perhaps 3) should be about figuring out what's been behind it and trying to remove that stressor. And then maybe another step can consider the disease paradigm, as a sel…

> 4 - List all the complaints people have about you and analyze what you might be doing wrong

That's not blaming yourself for alcoholism, which I think is the point your missing.

> 5 - Share your failings, no matter how embarrassing, with a trusted other on the principle that confession is good for the soul and sunlight is the best disinfectant

Again, this isn't about blaming yourself for your alcoholism AT ALL. This is about taking responsibility for bad behavior, which is often a very important catalyst for deciding to the the hard work of change.

> 6 - Ask yourself if you're really willing to change. That's not a given. Maybe you aren't.

Deciding whether or not you're ready to change is certainly not "blaming yourself."

Most alcoholics have to spend quite a lot of time forgiving themselves and letting go of blame -- which is, I think, generally very well known to people in recovery communities, but perhaps not as well known outside of them.

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#69

Post by gyranthology »

recoveredtoday wrote: post #62
emacsen wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is saying that 12 step doesn't have any successes, but: 1. The data is somewhat overwhelming that the rates of success aren't 25-30% as you said, but closer to 7%.[1] This puts it in roughly the same category as no 2. No one is dismissing the idea of doing 12 steps, but 12 steps is often court mandated. 3. 12 Step has more than passing connections to "faith-based" treatments. This is a problem when it's court…

All very good points My message was less a general response Vs a note to any struggling HNs that 12-step shouldn't be dismissed out of hand My upbringing, education, peers, research into the data generally would have had me write off AA Glad I didn't and gave it a try (after trying many other things)

Congrats on making it 10 years.

The concern I have with making it overly analytical like the HN crowd tends to do, we ignore a good chunk of psychological impact that purely data-driven statements can have. Instead of framing the discussion of "this doesn't work, we need to do something else" the conversation really should be "this works for some people but we can do better - we need to invest in it and figure it out."

That simple flip is easy and acknowledges that people have had success with this and people will continue to do so. It also sends the message that there's no reason to skip this entirely if you are looking for help.

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#70

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

giraffe_lady wrote: post #38
davedx wrote: post #33

I'm in AA at the moment and AA doesn't claim to be a scientific method for staying off alcohol. It's full of religion! TFA is a giant strawman.

I think that's one of the practical problems both with AA itself and with criticisms of it. It occupies this space in the cultural milieu as the main or even only system to address alcoholism. You have judges sending drunk drivers & domestic abusers to AA and shit, atheists in there freaking out needing help they're not gonna get because they didn't know what they were getting into and the steps very clearly are not…

> exhausting, endless, and humiliating. That is part of why it works for those it works for, but if you can find another way you'll have a better time.

I see what you did, there.

I think the word you are looking for is "humbling." Completely different animal from "humiliating."

It's not "exhausting," either. Not sure where that came from.

> you'll have a better time.

Not sure I'd find agreement with that statement.

Life is really, really good.

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