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With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

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Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#51

Post by flangola7 »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #32

Oh, let me hear the psychiatrist who has a new plan to overcome addiction with his bag of tricks. People worship modern psychiatry/psychology as this scientific insight into the human mind that has finally done away with superstition and religion, and can accurately (and repeatably) tell us what's happening with people suffering from various mental ailments, and how to fix it. But for some reason, every time a shooti…

Did a psychologist piss in your cheerios or something?

Modern psychiatry and medications are literally life changing for me. Easily the most dramatic life quality improvement I've ever experienced.

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#52

Post by sonjat »

The sad truth is that we just don't know how to treat addiction very well. We don't even define "success" well. Is it sober after 3 months? 6? 1 year? 5 years? 10? Does that still count if one has to continue to get treatment/go to meetings/take medication/etc.? There aren't a lot of good, consistent answers. AA isn't without its faults, but it is readily available, anonymous, and free (that's a big one -- too many anti-AA people are selling something).

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#53

Post by Eisenstein »

vorpalhex wrote: post #26
specproc wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People can choose to identify as they wish, and I'm not for one second diminishing that identification. But problematic drinking is very different to diabetes, it's also highly varied in its expression and not as deterministic as the label suggests. I totally understand why it's a helpful framing for some people, but it really isn't for others.

To extend this, there have been programs that have attempted to fix the problems of alcohol addiction but not require patients to remain sober. The core concept being that there is an underlying cause to the alcohol problem and the alcoholism is an expression of that problem, not itself a root. Thus once the root cause is fixed, the alcohol is no longer a trigger. Another form allows participants to drink but uses a…

> Another form allows participants to drink but uses a medicine which induces unpleasant effects from alcohol.

Actually, the successful medical method doesn't introduce unpleasant effects, but removes the pleasant ones and introduces 'extinction'.

The medication is naltraxone. Look up 'Sinclair method'.

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#54

Post by pella »

solution ~= finding meaning in life ?

"Little is known about the spiritual mechanism underlying the relationship between involvement in AA and subjective well-being. The aim of this study was to test the beneficial role of existential well-being in the indirect relationship between involvement in AA and the subjective well-being in a sample of individuals with alcohol dependence from Poland. In the literature, there is a lack of research regarding predictors of subjective well-being among participants of self-help groups. Most researchers have focused on abstinence duration or reduced drinking as a recovery indicators. Contrary to most recent studies, subjective well-being was used as a recovery indicator instead of abstinence duration or reduced drinking. It is due to the fact that abstinence is not the same phenomenon as sobriety. Abstinence exclusively refers to the symptoms of the disease, while sobriety is something deeper, manifesting in emotional and mental dimensions, being an expression of sobriety [16]. Existential well-being [17,18] is another construct than subjective well-being [19], but both of them are strictly related. It finds reflections in Seligman’s [20] model of happiness approaches for a meaningful and purposeful life as one of three ways to achieve subjective well-being. Additionally, in Frankl’s conception [21] finding meaning in life facilitates fulfillment and satisfaction."

read more:

"The Beneficial Role of Involvement in Alcoholics Anonymous for Existential and Subjective Well-Being of Alcohol-Dependent Individuals? The Model Verification"

https://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/19/9/5173

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#56

Post by emacsen »

recoveredtoday wrote: post #31

Guy checking in here that was super skeptical of AA, tried everything else including minimization, psychology, etc. 10 years sober today as a direct result of finally surrendering my ego and walking into the room and giving it a try. From my "class" I'd say about 25 - 30% of us have made it to this milestone so far. No two people are built the same is the truth, if you've tried and failed elsewhere don't be dissuaded…

No one is saying that 12 step doesn't have any successes, but:

1. The data is somewhat overwhelming that the rates of success aren't 25-30% as you said, but closer to 7%.[1] This puts it in roughly the same category as no

2. No one is dismissing the idea of doing 12 steps, but 12 steps is often court mandated.

3. 12 Step has more than passing connections to "faith-based" treatments. This is a problem when it's court mandated.

4. Instead of a problem with the program, they categorize inability to complete them as moral failures on the part of the person in treatment.

No one thinks that 12 step treatments shouldn't be an option, but they're not effective evidence based treatment options.

[1] https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/the-surpr...

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#57

Post by somewhereoutth »

boplicity wrote: post #48
somewhereoutth wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

However none of that addresses or even attempts to discover the underlying cause(s) of the addiction - instead it assumes it's 'all your fault' and you just need to 'change' to fix it. Perhaps it is external factors that created and continue to drive the addiction (e.g. bad relationships, too much responsibility, unfulfilling work, feeling trapped, boredom, loneliness). Addiction often starts as self medication, befo…

> instead it assumes it's 'all your fault' Actually, that assumption is very much not part of AA, and very much not part of the 12 steps as they're usually understood. For example, take step 1. "Admit you have a problem." You seem to be saying that admitting a problem is the same as blaming oneself. NOT TRUE. In fact, one of the most important things to acknowledge is that it's not your fault. It's just a disease. An…

but 4) 5) 6) are exactly blaming yourself. Indeed, they seem to focus on the bad things you have done (to others) as a result of your addiction, but with nothing about the cause of the addiction itself.

Agree with step 1) - and 2) in many cases - but perhaps 3) should be about figuring out what's been behind it and trying to remove that stressor. And then maybe another step can consider the disease paradigm, as a self-reinforcing cycle (failure, self-loathing, self-medication, failure...)

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#58

Post by bjt2n3904 »

jjulius wrote: post #39
bjt2n3904 wrote: post #32

Oh, let me hear the psychiatrist who has a new plan to overcome addiction with his bag of tricks. People worship modern psychiatry/psychology as this scientific insight into the human mind that has finally done away with superstition and religion, and can accurately (and repeatably) tell us what's happening with people suffering from various mental ailments, and how to fix it. But for some reason, every time a shooti…

>... and bury the fact that the majority of the shooters are on SSRI's and a host of other medication. Can you please cite a source for this? >It's because when you peek behind the curtain, you find they're just a form of culturally acceptable medicine men. "Here, take these pills and it will solve all your issues! No we don't have any idea what 'chemical imbalance' is happening, or even if it's happening, but that's…

[flagged]

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#59

Post by [deleted] »

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #58
jjulius wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>... and bury the fact that the majority of the shooters are on SSRI's and a host of other medication. Can you please cite a source for this? >It's because when you peek behind the curtain, you find they're just a form of culturally acceptable medicine men. "Here, take these pills and it will solve all your issues! No we don't have any idea what 'chemical imbalance' is happening, or even if it's happening, but that's…

[flagged]

[deleted]

Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)

#60

Post by prohobo »

specproc wrote: post #7

As someone who's been on his own journey with alcohol and hung out in a few sobriety forums (/r/stopdrinking is brilliant), I've seen a very clear difference between the 12-steppers and other people who are quit/quitting/moderating. I found the framing of the AA folks to be a lot more extreme. Problematic alcohol use is frequently described as an incurable, progressive disease. There's also this heavy focus on guilt…

I think AA "accidentally" provides people with strong community support - a basic need, the lack of which often leads people to... well, drink. AA fulfills that need, and maybe the 12 steps themselves don't work, but the community does. That's why so many people swear by it and have success with it.

So yes, it'll be a little culty, because those are the principles of this particular community, but I think it's far more valuable than say, a therapist, or trying to stop on your own.

My main problem with it is that people I know in AA can't seem to live without it. They depend on it so much that they're terrified of not following the 12 steps, for fear of getting "excommunicated", or worse: going back to drinking.

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