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Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

bugzilla.mozilla.org

21–30 of 443 posts

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#21
post #3

I would like anyone that considers Microsoft to be a recent champion of Open Source to reflect on corporate doublespeak. It's plausible that this bug was engineered as an attack on Firefox.

Why would Microsoft attack Firefox specifically and not Chrome? Chrome is the bigger threat to their business. Firefox has become almost too small to care about - little revenue, small browser market share.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#22
post #9

That's one way to look at it, but a very biased take. An equally valid take is that Firefox was calling an expensive platform feature too often, and even though it has been killing performance for years (possibly, for the entire history of the project) nobody noticed or bothered to fix it on the application side.

Also worth noting that the "expensive platform feature" you refer to in this specific case means "writing to a file". Something as basic as this should be assumed to be fast on modern operating systems.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#23
post #12
post #3

I would like anyone that considers Microsoft to be a recent champion of Open Source to reflect on corporate doublespeak. It's plausible that this bug was engineered as an attack on Firefox.

Have you any semblance of proof of this? By the looks of it took Firefox a few years to figure out what the repro was, they reported it to MS, it was (very) promptly fixed and they were warned that the syscall they were using isn't being used as intended and they should consider changes to FF for future use cases.

It's the AV that was calling TdhFormatProperty(), not FF. The problem was mostly on the AV side, not FF. FF itself was generating many events due to too many VirtualProtect() calls which in itself was only a smaller part of the problem.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#24
post #9

That's one way to look at it, but a very biased take. An equally valid take is that Firefox was calling an expensive platform feature too often, and even though it has been killing performance for years (possibly, for the entire history of the project) nobody noticed or bothered to fix it on the application side.

Recent discussion of this here also cited a problem (not sure if it was the same problem) with Defender causing 100x performance drop with some PowerShell operations.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#25
post #3

I would like anyone that considers Microsoft to be a recent champion of Open Source to reflect on corporate doublespeak. It's plausible that this bug was engineered as an attack on Firefox.

It is amusing that anyone thinks a company with > 200K employees and probably 10K products is organized enough for something like this.

Inaction is a pretty low "bandwidth" form of action, and can sometimes produce the results you're looking for just as well, if not more effectively.

Microsoft has a storied history of anti-competitive views leaking to public eyes/ears, something like this is quite literally a matter of not organizing anyone.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#26
post #19
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The platform feature in question was normally cheap and just made artificially expensive by Defender intercepting calls to it and blocking until analysis was performed. I don't think it's the FireFox' team's responsibility to be aware of and take into account arbitrary software intercepting system calls.

> I don't think it's the FireFox' team's responsibility to be aware of and take into account arbitrary software intercepting system calls. Per the bug report, Firefox was generating up to ~14,000 calls where Chrome was generating ~300, though. Surely it is Firefox' team's responsibility to use system calls in a sane way, say not almost 50x more than the competition?

Did you read the bug report? This is literally about writing to files in a temp folder. Surely you can optimize that but you should also be able to assume that this does not use excessive amounts of CPU on a modern operating system.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#27
post #22
post #9

That's one way to look at it, but a very biased take. An equally valid take is that Firefox was calling an expensive platform feature too often, and even though it has been killing performance for years (possibly, for the entire history of the project) nobody noticed or bothered to fix it on the application side.

Also worth noting that the "expensive platform feature" you refer to in this specific case means "writing to a file". Something as basic as this should be assumed to be fast on modern operating systems.

It is not a bug that there are overlooked optimizations in some platform features. Windows has a ton of slow features. Starting a process, for example, takes forever. It is the responsibility of application authors to write their performance-sensitive critical path in such a way as to avoid bogus platform behaviors. This goes for Linux, which has more than its fair share of brain damage, as well as Windows.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#28
post #22
post #9

That's one way to look at it, but a very biased take. An equally valid take is that Firefox was calling an expensive platform feature too often, and even though it has been killing performance for years (possibly, for the entire history of the project) nobody noticed or bothered to fix it on the application side.

Also worth noting that the "expensive platform feature" you refer to in this specific case means "writing to a file". Something as basic as this should be assumed to be fast on modern operating systems.

Yeah, your program definitely should not do as many useless writes on the system it runs on, it's just bad behaviour. If every program did the same the disk would grind to a halt, SSD or not.

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#29

What apps other than Firefox might this have affected that badly (75% CPU usage)?

Newer versions of Thunderbird have been rendered completely unusable unless I exclude %userprofile%\AppData\Local\Thunderbird from real-time scans.

Thunderbird is atrociously slow even without an AV with any mailbox that isn't tiny. Could it be that yours has just grown over the years and Defender amplifies it?

Re: Microsoft fixes 5-year-old Defender bug, reducing Firefox-related CPU use by 75%

#30
post #3

I would like anyone that considers Microsoft to be a recent champion of Open Source to reflect on corporate doublespeak. It's plausible that this bug was engineered as an attack on Firefox.

This seems incredibly unlikely and overly cynical just for the sake of being cynical.
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