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Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

bloomberg.com

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Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#81

Post by Robotbeat »

phs318u wrote: post #64

While the large batteries have been extremely useful in stabilising a grid composed mainly of renewables, true grid-scale storage will likely not be based on lithium battery tech, but on things like pumped hydro and molten salt heat storage. Having said that, Australian lithium exports are tipped to exceed those of coal by value within 5 years. https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/apr/07/value...

Pumped hydro isn’t any cheaper fundamentally per kWh than lithium cells. Tesla currently sells Megapacks with a high profit margin, but the bulk supplier cell level lithium iron phosphate cells are about half the price per kWh as a finished pumped hydro station (which is to say that the fundamental technology is cheap, even if demand is so high right now that pumped hydro might be cheaper than Megapacks).

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#82

Post by markmark »

asdefghyk wrote: post #21

RE "South Australia’s last coal-fired power plant had closed, leaving the province of 1.8 million heavily reliant on wind farms and power imports from a neighboring region. " So - now they import power from places that use coal fired power stations and they have grid stability problems. NOT quitting coal at all. Id ask what is the price of their power KWh?

The other key thing is SAs power use is far smaller than NSW, Victoria and Queensland. So while they can shutdown their coal stations and import if there is a shortfall, those bigger states can't.

For example as I type this Queensland is generating about 4300MW of solar, SA is generating about 1300MW of solar, but SA gets all the plaudits for being green.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#84

Post by irjustin »

ClumsyPilot wrote: post #72
gkanai wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> perversely enough the subsidy increases the more you earn and the higher your taxes Isn't this because those who are going to buy EVs today (which are premium if not luxury vehicle prices) are those who have more money to do so? There is not yet a widely available entry level priced EV that is broadly popular.

no, its because in a higher tax braket you pay more tax its the sane in britain - if you earn $200,000 income-tax-free means 50% off, but if you earn $20,000. it means like 5% off Also in Uk id you want to buy a e car, you get a grant of a few grand, if you want an e motorbike you get like $300, and if you want an ebike, the most wco friwndly option, you fuck right off

Should it be a refund (instead of a tax break)?

I'm leaning towards the refund since it effectively gives everyone the "same final price"

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#85

Post by Robotbeat »

arcticbull wrote: post #4
toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

TLDR battery storage can replace grid inertia (“ancillary services”) historically provided by thermal generators (coal and various forms of fossil gas). This is a distinct service/capability from energy arbitrage and has its own revenue stream. South Australia (where the Hornsdale Power Reserve was installed) runs a minimum of 80MW of fossil gas generation to provide these services (in concert with synchronous conden…

The cost however remains remarkably high. A combination of renewables and giant piles of lithium is more expensive than nuclear, by quite a bit. [1] Anyways, the future is a mix of all sorts of things and this is a strict improvement so it's hard to be anything other than supportive. [1] https://spectrum.ieee.org/what-energy-storage-would-have-to-...

I mean, that points to a Joule article that says: “If other sources meet demand 5% of the time, electricity costs fall and the energy capacity cost target rises to $150/kWh.” (Ie from $20/kWh). In other words, the grid can easily go to 95% variable renewable using storage costs the same as what they are right now. I should point out even nuclear power tends to use fossil power for backup, and synthesizing hydrogen for industrial uses could also be used to provide that last 5% affordably.

That’s why when you add hydrogen season storage (to lithium daily storage), renewables are very competitive with nuclear even at 100% bAsElOaD. See: https://model.energy for an illustration of this.

But seriously, getting to even just 95% clean energy would be a massive win, and the most important thing is getting to 95% clean within 20 years, not 100% in 40. (Or actually, getting to 80% in 10 is even more important, and to do it in a way that doesn’t massively increase energy costs, because we also have to eliminate natural gas for heating and petroleum for transportation.)

(And I’m a big proponent of nuclear, but you can just build renewable WAAAAY faster in 2023. And that’s what matters… well that and not prematurely decommissioning existing nuclear!)

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#86

Post by AdamJacobMuller »

its-summertime wrote: post #15

https://opennem.org.au/energy/sa1/ is the one-stop-shop for current energy situation in Australia. Anecdotal: SA was pushing towards clean energy notably before the battery came in, but in turn, had a very unstable grid, and the things like energy trading et al. were tied up in international ownership iirc (needing authorization to do a large energy trade required someone from France giving approval, timezones didn't…

Really great visualization.

Seems to disprove the title of the article to me though.

Battery has a .1% grid contribution (point 1 percent, not one percent).

Coal is a massive 62% of power generation in Australia!

Seems improbable to me that the major driver of reducing 60+% electricity contribution is something producing .1%.

Seems more like Australia is "quitting coal in records" purely because it's using so much of it and battery contribution is incidental.

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#87

Post by grecy »

rippercushions wrote: post #32

Australia also has a remarkable tax incentive that lets you buy EVs basically tax free (fringe benefits tax exemption for novated leases, in bureaucratese). Basically, instead of paying $70k for a Tesla post-tax, you can get it deducted directly from your paycheck for around $45k pretax. The exact math depends on your income, and perversely enough the subsidy increases the more you earn and the higher your taxes, but…

Do you have a link to this tax incentive? When did it come in?

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#88

Post by paranoidrobot »

rippercushions wrote: post #32

Australia also has a remarkable tax incentive that lets you buy EVs basically tax free (fringe benefits tax exemption for novated leases, in bureaucratese). Basically, instead of paying $70k for a Tesla post-tax, you can get it deducted directly from your paycheck for around $45k pretax. The exact math depends on your income, and perversely enough the subsidy increases the more you earn and the higher your taxes, but…

Have you got any info on this? Last I heard EVs were getting made even more expensive due to the luxury car tax. (Which, yes you get a partial discount on for EVs, but even still, a reduced additional tax is still an additional tax)

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#89

Post by angry_octet »

verelo wrote: post #63
asdefghyk wrote: post #21

RE "South Australia’s last coal-fired power plant had closed, leaving the province of 1.8 million heavily reliant on wind farms and power imports from a neighboring region. " So - now they import power from places that use coal fired power stations and they have grid stability problems. NOT quitting coal at all. Id ask what is the price of their power KWh?

As an Australian living in Canada, I want to say unalike Canada, the term "Province" feels weird to be used here. Australia refers to its divided regions as "States".

As wrong-sounding as saying "the province of California ..."

Re: Australia is quitting coal in record time thanks to Tesla

#90

Post by iknowstuff »

dsffghfghfghfgh wrote: post #79
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

lithium is mined in US and australia, not so much africa. And, unlike coal, only needs to be mined once

[Edited my original comment to include processing plants]. There is a secondary stage of processing after extraction which is highly toxic, that is the polluting part. Have a look at the huge tailings dams they set up to hold the toxic waste. These things just kick the can down the road for future generations. They also probably leak into groundwater. Lucky you don't have to drink that water.

infinitely better than putting CO2, particulate matter and carcinogens in the air. And recyclable.
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