With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
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Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#2Sigh. As someone who’s had success in 12-step recovery since 1998, I find these sorts of “debunkings” incredibly disappointing. Firstly the measurement of success rate entirely misses the point. The 12-step view is that there isn’t a “once and done” cure. If I were to use an analogy it’s more like having lifelong diabetes. You gotta keep taking that insulin. It’s the continuity that forestalls the disease/ keeps you in remission.
Yes, 12-step programs have issues, and a big one is the whole “higher power”/god thing. Maybe this is more of an issue in the USA which is far more religious than other countries. But even that is addressable for atheist 12-steppers. I should know - I am one.
If you are interested in a different take by a psychologist expert in the field, check out the writing of Dr. Patrick Carnes.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#3I'm a recovering alcoholic who has worked the 12 steps. To get this out the way, I agree that courts should not be sending people to AA. It's no good for anyone.
The reason that the 5 to 10 percent do well in AA actually doesn't have to do with the 12 steps themselves; it has to do with the camaraderie.
I agree with the second half of the that sentence, but the reason the reason many people including researchers don't think the 12 steps is because so few people understand them to do them properly.
Actually, the are a remarkable piece of mental technology based on thousands of years of wisdom
1 - Admit you have a problem. You can't fix a problem you refuse to recognize.
2 - Recognize you've tried to solve it by yourself and have failed. You need help from others.
3 - Humble yourself enough to ask for help and be ready to follow direction
4 - List all the complaints people have about you and analyze what you might be doing wrong
5 - Share your failings, no matter how embarrassing, with a trusted other on the principle that confession is good for the soul and sunlight is the best disinfectant
6 - Ask yourself if you're really willing to change. That's not a given. Maybe you aren't.
7 - If you are then do what it takes to change. This is going to be different for everyone.
8 - Look at step 4 and see who you need to apologize to
9 - When you feel you are ready and sufficiently reformed, apologize and make restitution to those on the list you made in step 8. To those that aren't willing to talk, let it go and don't bother them.
10 - Make it a practice to do steps 4 through 9 as needed. We believe in progress not perfection.
11 - We need to remind ourselves daily that we have a problem that we can't solve alone and that we may need the help of others on any given day. I've heard it called a disease of forgetfulness. We may need to wake up in the morning to read and pray if so inclined. As one person told me, "carve out a little piece of each day for the 12 steps"
12 - Carry this message to others who are still suffering, which I am doing here
Edit: I almost forget: Notice I haven't mentioned God. There were atheists in early AA that insisted that Bill Wilson insert the phrase "God of our understanding" in the book Alcoholic Anonymous so people could be free to use the concept of God or not.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#4Sigh. As someone who’s had success in 12-step recovery since 1998, I find these sorts of “debunkings” incredibly disappointing. Firstly the measurement of success rate entirely misses the point. The 12-step view is that there isn’t a “once and done” cure. If I were to use an analogy it’s more like having lifelong diabetes. You gotta keep taking that insulin. It’s the continuity that forestalls the disease/ keeps you…
Yes, I get the feeling to. I just posted a comment I hope anyone reading this will find helpful
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#5Not meaning to diminish the role that 12 step recovery plays in the lives of many but given the impact that alcoholism medication had on my own life I can't help but mention it here. I used Naltrexone through The Sinclair Method and rewired my brain by continuing to drink for a year using the medication. I'm now multiple years sober. It took some extra time to deal with some emotional stuff, 12 steps will help you more there. But addressing the chemical addiction first worked well for me. See my comment history for more details.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#6Not meaning to diminish the role that 12 step recovery plays in the lives of many but given the impact that alcoholism medication had on my own life I can't help but mention it here. I used Naltrexone through The Sinclair Method and rewired my brain by continuing to drink for a year using the medication. I'm now multiple years sober. It took some extra time to deal with some emotional stuff, 12 steps will help you mo…
I think most 12 step people who find success actually acknowledge what the psychiatrist is saying. Addiction isnt just one thing, often it can be a bunch of things, a big one being un-treated mental health problems like depression, anxiety, or even add/ADHD. It can be as he said feelings of powerlessness and displacing problems, like chemical procrastination of emotional processing. If that is a source of the issue it would make sense that addiction would be more common in society where emotions are not discussed or stigmatized but alcoholism is not.
This is all to say 12 steps isn't enough by itself and as far as I know most addicts in recovery stress that. I have known heroin addicts who are in recovery who go to meetings, but they also take meds, changed where they live, who they hang out with, media they consume, I even think they went to behavioral health therapy for a while to help change how they approach problems like stress, anger, communication, etc.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#7As someone who's been on his own journey with alcohol and hung out in a few sobriety forums (/r/stopdrinking is brilliant), I've seen a very clear difference between the 12-steppers and other people who are quit/quitting/moderating.
I found the framing of the AA folks to be a lot more extreme. Problematic alcohol use is frequently described as an incurable, progressive disease. There's also this heavy focus on guilt and shame (see steps 4, 5 and 8) which I've always found a little uncomfortable and well, culty.
I'm not saying it's not helpful, it's saved many a backside. Nor am I saying that it's success-rate is oversold, I've not gone into the evidence. It was just definitely, clearly not for me.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#8As someone who's been on his own journey with alcohol and hung out in a few sobriety forums (/r/stopdrinking is brilliant), I've seen a very clear difference between the 12-steppers and other people who are quit/quitting/moderating. I found the framing of the AA folks to be a lot more extreme. Problematic alcohol use is frequently described as an incurable, progressive disease. There's also this heavy focus on guilt…
FWIW, I am not an atheist and no longer drinking like I used to.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#9Sigh. As someone who’s had success in 12-step recovery since 1998, I find these sorts of “debunkings” incredibly disappointing. Firstly the measurement of success rate entirely misses the point. The 12-step view is that there isn’t a “once and done” cure. If I were to use an analogy it’s more like having lifelong diabetes. You gotta keep taking that insulin. It’s the continuity that forestalls the disease/ keeps you…
> The 12-step view is that there isn’t a “once and done” cure. If I were to use an analogy it’s more like having lifelong diabetes. You gotta keep taking that insulin. It’s the continuity that forestalls the disease/ keeps you in remission.
This is actually one of the things that many psychologists are dubious about. It's entirely possible that self-labeling as an alcoholic forever makes it harder, not easier, for some people to remain abstinent.
To the extent that it keeps you vigilant and involved in a supportive community, it can be good. But it could also make it harder to get back on the wagon if you have a single drink if you think you're "an alcoholic", and not "a sober person who made a mistake".
Due to the anonymous and heterogeneous nature of AA, good data and studies of its efficacy are very hard to come by, so we have little idea if it's actually better than non-AA or pharmaceutical alternatives.
Re: With Sobering Science, Doctor Debunks 12-Step Recovery (2014)
#10I'm a recovering alcoholic who has worked the 12 steps. To get this out the way, I agree that courts should not be sending people to AA. It's no good for anyone. The reason that the 5 to 10 percent do well in AA actually doesn't have to do with the 12 steps themselves; it has to do with the camaraderie. I agree with the second half of the that sentence, but the reason the reason many people including researchers don'…
The steps are good advice and can be helpful for some people. That does not mean people who fail (80+% from the data I saw) are doing them wrong.
Why is it so hard for people to accept that some things work, for some people. My personal experience of success is not a reasonable blueprint for literally anyone except me. Our experiences are shared but not useful to proscribe behavioral interventions for anyone except us.
AA works for some people. It does not work for others.