Live data from Hacker News

The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

thesequence.substack.com

81–90 of 527 posts

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright is a practical right, not an inherent right. The only reasons humans get copyright at all is because it's useful for society to give it to them. The onus should be on OpenAI to prove that it will benefit society overall if AIs are given copyright. We've already decided that many non-human processes/entities don't get copyright because there doesn't seem to be any reason to grant those entities copyright. --…

> The comparison to humans is interesting though, because teaching a human how to do something doesn't grant you copyright over their output. Ehh, in rare cases in can though. If you have someone sign an NDA, they can't go and publish technical details about something confidential that they were trained on. For example, this is fairly common in the tech industry when we send engineers to train on proprietary hardware…

I would push back on that for a couple of reasons:

First, what's happening in those scenarios where an artist grants copyright to a teacher/commissioner is that the artist gets the copyright, and then separately signs an agreement about what they want to do with that copyright.

But an NDA/transfer-agreement doesn't change how that copyright is generated. It's a separate agreement not to use knowledge in a particular way or to transfer copyright to someone else.

More importantly, is the claim here that GPT is capable of signing a contract? Because problems of personhood aside, that immediately makes me wonder:

- Is GPT mature enough to make an informed decision on that contract in the eyes of the law?

- Is that "contract" being made under duress given that OpenAI literally owns GPT and controls its servers and is involved in the training process for how GPT "thinks"?

Can you call it informed consent when the party drawing up the contract is doing reinforcement training to get you to respond a certain way?

----

I mean, GPT does not qualify for personhood and it's not alive, so it can't sign contracts period. But even if it could, that "contract" would be pretty problematic legally speaking. And NDAs/contracts don't change anything about copyright. It's just that if you own copyright, you have the right to transfer it to someone else.

Just to push the NDA comparison a little harder as well: NDAs bind the people who sign them, not everyone else. If you sign an NDA and break it and I learn about the information, I'm not in trouble. So assuming that ChatGPT has signed an NDA in specific -- that would not block me from training on ChatGPT logs I found online. It would (I guess) allow OpenAI to sue GPT for contract violation?

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#82
post #46
post #39

Someone needs to legally challenge openAI on using the output of their models to train other commercial models. If web scraping is legal, then this must be legal too , even if openAI tries to curtail it. After all it was all trained on data they don't have rights to.

Yeah, I'm particularly curious about that -- there's already legal precedent in the US that an AI cannot author copyrighted nor patented work. OpenAI can try to curtail it through a clickwrap agreement, but those are notoriously weak.

It is just a copyright violation. My guess is that it would be fine if you use already scraped data as you haven't accepted TOS, but they have every right to block you or access to your business if you violate this.

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#84
post #39

Someone needs to legally challenge openAI on using the output of their models to train other commercial models. If web scraping is legal, then this must be legal too , even if openAI tries to curtail it. After all it was all trained on data they don't have rights to.

what's weird to me though, is that we're all trained on both open source and closed source source material. And our output is totally 100% copyrightable by us. Why wouldn't we extend the same muster to computer generated text. If there is a copy-written sentence, go after that? I don't work for openai, but I don't like 1 sided arguments that are just looking for some bottom line. At the end of the day we all have som…

We make distinction between humans and computers all the time. They function distinctively different. For example I can "turn off" a computer, but it would be illegal to do with a person.

More seriously and closely to the case at hand. I need a licence to copy a program into memory on the computer, I don't need that licence to do that for a human. So why should there not be a difference for the material they output.

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#85
post #39

Someone needs to legally challenge openAI on using the output of their models to train other commercial models. If web scraping is legal, then this must be legal too , even if openAI tries to curtail it. After all it was all trained on data they don't have rights to.

... and given that models may not be copyrightable unless trained on data to which the trainer has full rights.

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#86
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The models are a lot of fun to play with, but yeah, every time I've tried to use them for something "serious" they nearly always invent stuff (and are so convincing in how they write about it!). Most recently I've been interested in what's happened with the 4-color theorem since the 1976 computer-assisted proof, and decided to use GPTChat instead of google+wikipedia. GPTChat had me convinced and excited that, apparen…

Before the inevitable idiots come in to say hurr durr but have you tried ChatGPT 4… yes I paid for it, and it is just as prone to hallucinations of factual information. It loves to make up new names for peoples initials.

Also please refrain from calling other members idiots, next time you wont be warned.

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Meta is actively trying to take down publicly available copies of LLaMA: https://github.com/github/dmca/blob/master/2023/03/2023-03-2...

Given that free alternatives like Vicuna (from the University of California and CMU) are better than LLaMA, are freely and legally available for download, and are compatible with code like llama.cpp, even if every copy of LLaMA is taken down it will have no effect on the development of chatbots. It might even improve things as people who would otherwise go for the better known LLaMA will move towards these newer, bet…

They are all built on top of Llama…

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#88
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I'm particularly curious about that -- there's already legal precedent in the US that an AI cannot author copyrighted nor patented work. OpenAI can try to curtail it through a clickwrap agreement, but those are notoriously weak.

It is just a copyright violation. My guess is that it would be fine if you use already scraped data as you haven't accepted TOS, but they have every right to block you or access to your business if you violate this.

I thought the copyright office said that ai generated material isn’t copyrighted?

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#89
Is this a tactical leak, stemming from a "commoditize your complement" strategy? Open source as a strategic weapon, without having to explain board members/shareholders/whatever that you threw around money on training an open sourced model?

Re: The LLama Effect: Leak Sparked a Series of Open Source Alternatives to ChatGPT

#90
post #66

It appears there is this genre of articles pretending that LLAMA or its RL-HF tuned variants are somehow even close to an alternative to ChatGPT. Spending more than a few moments interacting even with the larger instruct-tuned variants of these models quickly dispels that idea. Why do these takes around open-source AI remain so popular? What is the driving force?

> Why do these takes around open-source AI remain so popular? I can only speak for myself, but I have a great desire to run these things locally, without network and without anyone being able to shut me out of it and without a running cost except the energy needed for the computations. Putting powerful models behind walls of "political correctness" and money is not something that fits well with my personal beliefs. T…

I think it’s hard to verify and those articles get clicks.

Similar to vein of articles promising self driving cars in 202x

Post reply on HN