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Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

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Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#71

Post by stock_toaster »

trustfundbaby wrote: post #66

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win --- Gandhi This happens with every popular new tech that does things differently from how its been done before. Since I've been developing I've seen it happen with PHP Rails mongodb now node.js As long as there is a critical mass of developers that want to use a certain technology, there is nothing that anyone can do to stop it. They'll…

I think the hype cycle[1] is more apt than the Gandhi quote in several of the cases you mentioned.

In fact, I would say that node has simply passed the "Peak of Inflated Expectations" and is/has-been descending into the "Trough of Disillusionment".

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hype_cycle

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#72

Post by apgwoz »

huggyface wrote: post #52
apgwoz wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling JavaScript a functional language on the pure basis that it has first class functions and closures is sort of stupid. Aside from that, what other properties does JS enforce that are deemed functional? I'll save you some time: none.

My interest in having a boring argument with a language bigot approaches nil. But yes, aside from the very namesake of functional programming (a vague language grouping with no disciplined definition), yeah there's nothing else there...groan.

You are correct in saying that functional programming has a vague meaning. For JavaScript, I'll accept the meaning:

    functional: adj, produces a correct result
      example usage: Despite its many warts, inadequacies,
        somehow JavaScript is actually functional.

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#73

Post by aphyr »

InclinedPlane wrote: post #15
jerf wrote: post #4

The problem was the hype. It was hyped as a silver bullet, and we even have issues like people who have drunk too much Node Kool-Aid thinking that Node has the absolute best multithreading solution, and anything else that doesn't work exactly like Node is therefore worse, when Node in fact merely has a polished-but-old-school approach to the problem. If people are upset that Node isn't a silver bullet, it's because t…

The "cloud" has been overhyped up the wazoo for years. That doesn't make PaaS meaningless or less useful. PS. Could you point out a few egregious examples of the node community overhyping Node.js?

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=-sfZqL4Plxc&p=n#/260;27...

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#74

Post by izaguf »

huggyface wrote: post #5
jerf wrote: post #4

The problem was the hype. It was hyped as a silver bullet, and we even have issues like people who have drunk too much Node Kool-Aid thinking that Node has the absolute best multithreading solution, and anything else that doesn't work exactly like Node is therefore worse, when Node in fact merely has a polished-but-old-school approach to the problem. If people are upset that Node isn't a silver bullet, it's because t…

What hype? Whose hype? I think it's a strawman. There is a certain class of problem that often appears on the web presentation layer -- the interaction between the browser and a cornucopia of back-end sources and systems -- where nodejs is often a very good fit, and it is almost always what enthusiasts of the platform are speaking of. That's it. Nothing more. I've seen various angry retorts that opine that become it…

There is lots of enthusiasts who post hyperbole like https://twitter.com/travisglines/status/163735891964203008

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#75

Post by InclinedPlane »

aphyr wrote: post #73
InclinedPlane wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "cloud" has been overhyped up the wazoo for years. That doesn't make PaaS meaningless or less useful. PS. Could you point out a few egregious examples of the node community overhyping Node.js?

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=-sfZqL4Plxc&p=n#/260;27...

I'm not impressed by this example. You could use the same words to describe nginx to some degree. "Do something that hasn't been done before" isn't a crazy amount of hype, in my opinion.

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#76

Post by the-cakeboss »

kylebrown wrote: post #69
ryankshaw wrote: post #20

Just wanted to point out the apples to oranges comparison being made: The article argues that node's sweet-spot is: "to enable real-time propagation of events and state-changes between clients. You could do the same thing with long-polling ajax or even frequent polling, but those both come with the cost of tying up unnecessary worker threads on the server and dealing with extra requests." yes we all know that, that i…

There's other reasons to like node besides the non-blocking IO. For me, its being able to reuse code on the client and the server. Not sure why the node bashers seem to overlook that one.

Serious question: What might you want to reuse on the client side?

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#77

Post by InclinedPlane »

tlrobinson wrote: post #59
InclinedPlane wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "cloud" has been overhyped up the wazoo for years. That doesn't make PaaS meaningless or less useful. PS. Could you point out a few egregious examples of the node community overhyping Node.js?

Well, to quote Ryan Dahl: "i wish for less #nodejs hype." https://twitter.com/#!/ryah/status/8519974729 Also, I regularly see people making claims like "You can’t shoot yourself in the foot in any way" ( http://venturebeat.com/2012/01/24/node-at-google-mozilla-yah... ) and other variations involving issues around performance and concurrency. I think it stems from some very smart people talking about why Node is bette…

"You can’t shoot yourself in the foot in any way" is a pretty silly thing to say, but that seems to be an off-hand, casually made comment. None of this seems particularly egregious.

I'm looking for examples such as people actively promulgating Node adoption with ridiculous claims, people advising folks to use Node for specific tasks where it's completely unsuitable, people selling Node based technologies that aren't that good, people making the claim that Node is a silver bullet very publicly to a large audience, etc.

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#78

Post by InclinedPlane »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #7
huggyface wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hype? Whose hype? I think it's a strawman. There is a certain class of problem that often appears on the web presentation layer -- the interaction between the browser and a cornucopia of back-end sources and systems -- where nodejs is often a very good fit, and it is almost always what enthusiasts of the platform are speaking of. That's it. Nothing more. I've seen various angry retorts that opine that become it…

If you've spent any appreciable amount of time on Hacker News, you'd know that there has been pretty big hype behind Node.js. If you don't see it, you're not paying attention. Anecdotally, I work with a lot of fairly inexperienced developers with my clients, and I honestly can't tell you how many times they've suggested we "rewrite (x) in Node.js because it's faster" or "let's switch this to Redis" with no real reaso…

A lot of buzz about Node shouldn't be confused with a lot of "hype". If people are talking about something a lot and using it for very specific projects that's very different from people evangelizing it as a silver bullet solution for everything.

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#79

Post by InclinedPlane »

apgwoz wrote: post #47
huggyface wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All else isn't the same. For one, this event-based, single-threaded "asynchronous" execution environment running on a dynamic language uses javascript , which is a surprisingly powerful functional language that just happens to run on the other side of the web server conversation in the context that we are discussing. Being able to standardize and coalesce the two sides of the web pipeline -- regardless of what magic…

Calling JavaScript a functional language on the pure basis that it has first class functions and closures is sort of stupid. Aside from that, what other properties does JS enforce that are deemed functional? I'll save you some time: none.

Provide a concise, objective definition for functional languages which Lisp, Scala, Haskell, and Lua satisfy but Javascript does not.

Re: Node.js isn't a silver bullet, but it's still a bullet.

#80

Post by moe »

jeremymcanally wrote: post #7
huggyface wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What hype? Whose hype? I think it's a strawman. There is a certain class of problem that often appears on the web presentation layer -- the interaction between the browser and a cornucopia of back-end sources and systems -- where nodejs is often a very good fit, and it is almost always what enthusiasts of the platform are speaking of. That's it. Nothing more. I've seen various angry retorts that opine that become it…

If you've spent any appreciable amount of time on Hacker News, you'd know that there has been pretty big hype behind Node.js. If you don't see it, you're not paying attention. Anecdotally, I work with a lot of fairly inexperienced developers with my clients, and I honestly can't tell you how many times they've suggested we "rewrite (x) in Node.js because it's faster" or "let's switch this to Redis" with no real reaso…

or "let's switch this to Redis"

Don't throw node and redis in the same bucket please.

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