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Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

reuters.com

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Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#161

Post by throw_away_8080 »

sosborn wrote: post #43
victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

It is not functioning as a garment, it is a device used to enforce modesty and mark someone as second class citizen. It is more similar to a straight jacket or a yellow star than a hat. What complicates it is some people of faith want to wear it and are persecuted for that.

Making it simply a choice of clothing is reductionism and you know it.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#162

Post by colechristensen »

revscat wrote: post #84
colechristensen wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a conversation with a young progressive atheist woman about first hand accounts with women of Muslim backgrounds wearing the mandated clothing out of fear. She had a hard time accepting that what people said and how they acted publicly wasn’t the whole story. I used to smoke weed with some people that included some Muslim girls who would talk openly about what they were afraid of and the family pressures. If yo…

These anecdotes are completely useless. It is far too common to see some conservative somewhere trot out anecdotes such as this, claiming some stupidity being said by someone they don’t like. Frankly I do not believe you, no matter how taboo it is the say so. To use a phrase that seems to have lost favor: link, or it didn’t happen.

I’m not conservative and I’m not recording sensitive private conversations for the amusement of internet strangers. I’m relating my first hand experience using my real name, you can choose to believe whatever you want.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#163

Post by colechristensen »

tadfisher wrote: post #97
colechristensen wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of “liberal” people are starting to get progressively more strange ideas and it’s troubling. Jumping from not wanting to prosecute minor drug crimes (reasonable) to not wanting to prosecute murder (troubling). Trying to support other cultures (admirable) by encouraging oppressive practices (troubling). Not seeming to understand that very much of the women’s clothing is worn out of fear ranging from family shami…

I feel like you're doing the classifying here. There is no single "left" position on this issue, because "the left" is not an entity. You got very close to self-awareness in your last paragraph, but projected onto it a twisted view of liberalism as an authoritarian morality police, which makes me question where you source your information.

To be clear, I’m explicitly calling out the average liberal as increasingly advocating for authoritarian solutions on many societal issues. Not the fringe, not a few, but the majority of the political left in the US. Do other people not see this?

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#164

Post by tacon »

otikik wrote: post #149
amelius wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get offended but I've noticed that when people wear the hood of their hoodies in public transit, I sometimes feel a bit uneasy about not being able to see their faces. So I'm thinking there is a non-religious aspect to the discussion.

I’m a reasonably-big, dark skinned guy. I tend to elicit the feeling you are mentioning often, without intending to. I have seen old women move away from me while we were waiting to cross the street. I have been stopped by police because “I was acting suspicious” (I was walking to the gym, after work). It’s not a nice feeling, scaring people just by being around. Because of this, I never wear the hood of my hoodie. I…

I once read in a book about sales about a tall, well-built athletic guy who was in outside sales. His problem: whenever he walked into a prospect's office, he could detect fear just from his imposing presence. He solved this problem by arranging to stumble as he crossed the threshold, which effectively allayed the latent fear.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#165

Post by sangnoir »

ybinator604g3 wrote: post #56
sosborn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

Is it really a choice when you are talking about religion? I am from Iran. In the school they teach (scare) children that if you don’t wear hijab, you will be hanged from your hair and burned on a stick till eternity in hell after you die. By the way that subject is not elective. You have to pass it. What kind of choice is this? Update (context): I am not talking about the people in west who want to (not)wear hijab.…

> I am not talking about the people in west who want to (not)wear hijab.

What are your thoughts on western governments that attempt to ban the hijab? I can't remember if France succeeded.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#166

Post by stormfather »

throw_away_8080 wrote: post #161
sosborn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

It is not functioning as a garment, it is a device used to enforce modesty and mark someone as second class citizen. It is more similar to a straight jacket or a yellow star than a hat. What complicates it is some people of faith want to wear it and are persecuted for that. Making it simply a choice of clothing is reductionism and you know it.

Society enforced modesty on all of us by requiring underwear. And I'm tired of it.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#167

Post by otikik »

tacon wrote: post #164
otikik wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m a reasonably-big, dark skinned guy. I tend to elicit the feeling you are mentioning often, without intending to. I have seen old women move away from me while we were waiting to cross the street. I have been stopped by police because “I was acting suspicious” (I was walking to the gym, after work). It’s not a nice feeling, scaring people just by being around. Because of this, I never wear the hood of my hoodie. I…

I once read in a book about sales about a tall, well-built athletic guy who was in outside sales. His problem: whenever he walked into a prospect's office, he could detect fear just from his imposing presence. He solved this problem by arranging to stumble as he crossed the threshold, which effectively allayed the latent fear.

Heh. That’s a good trick.

I am not “athletic” though :)

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#168

Post by ramblenode »

throw_away_8080 wrote: post #161
sosborn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

It is not functioning as a garment, it is a device used to enforce modesty and mark someone as second class citizen. It is more similar to a straight jacket or a yellow star than a hat. What complicates it is some people of faith want to wear it and are persecuted for that. Making it simply a choice of clothing is reductionism and you know it.

> It is not functioning as a garment, it is a device used to enforce modesty

Do you consider the widespread laws in the West that require women to cover their chests in public similarly oppressive?

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#169

Post by ybinator604g3 »

sangnoir wrote: post #165
ybinator604g3 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really a choice when you are talking about religion? I am from Iran. In the school they teach (scare) children that if you don’t wear hijab, you will be hanged from your hair and burned on a stick till eternity in hell after you die. By the way that subject is not elective. You have to pass it. What kind of choice is this? Update (context): I am not talking about the people in west who want to (not)wear hijab.…

> I am not talking about the people in west who want to (not)wear hijab. What are your thoughts on western governments that attempt to ban the hijab? I can't remember if France succeeded.

I think it’s a complex topic that involves religion, society and culture. In this case it’s important to know if they are singling out hijab or also other religious symbols? For instance France banned full face covers and burkas which are not even mandated by the religion if I am not mistaken.

I believe banning a piece of clothing is not reasonable, like banning jeans or headscarves. On the other hand there is a lot of stigma around hijab if you choose not to wear it among some muslim families so much so that it’s not a real choice anymore and it’s not a simple piece of cloth. So I think it’s not bad to have some legal ways to protect you against your over zealous family/community but this kind of lawmaking is very prone to other issues too. Furthermore, banning and enforcing are two sides of the same authoritarian coin which is ultimately the root of the problem. It’s very complicated. I wish I had a straightforward answer.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#170

Post by ramblenode »

mc32 wrote: post #102
sosborn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

It’s more complicated because the reason someone may want to wear it is based on indoctrination. If you have a modern sect that indoctrinated its members to serve (labor, etc) the leadership and they do it voluntarily and in addition may balk at not doing it, posing their position as “a choice” is missing the context.

How is this any different from belief in general? Most people's beliefs are a product of their culture. We are all indoctrinated, whether it's religion, nationalism, or tuna casserole.
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