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The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

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Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#81

Post by morpheos137 »

Nevermark wrote: post #62
Animats wrote: post #38

That's a mess of an article. It confuses "free will" and "freedom". "Free will" is an internal issue within brains. "Freedom" is about what you can do before some external constraint stops you. Confusing the two does not help. On the free will side, there are various technical arguments. One science fiction author has one of his robots, asked about free will by a human, say that they have a random number generator, a…

> There are psychology experiments which indicate that the explanation for a decision is generated after the decision is made. Beyond experiments, there just isn't an alternative. Unless our decision making was completely conscious and objective (lists, arithmetic, logical selection or elimination, etc.) then it includes subconscious components (feelings, instinct, intuition, reflex, etc.) whose processes we don't kn…

What will really blow your mind is when "you" learn there is no "you."

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#82

Post by than3 »

That-Dude wrote: post #5

[flagged]

> For a very long time, the two basic opposing ends of the ...

That's not actually been true since the 90s.

It just seemed that way because you believed the lies initially, then you grew as a person and discovered they were lies and lacked any real credibility.

This group of people also still retain 50% or more of the judicial and political power to this day. They are on their last harrah, they stopped representing long ago, and have allowed coercion and other intolerable acts to seep into and corrupt everything. Change won't be possible until these things age out.

There are a lot of distractions and its hard to find anyone you can trust online because most accounts aren't people, they are just algorithmic bubbles and agents contributing to perverse incentives.

There is a really good book with examples at USMC University's publications about Political Warfare, which is largely many of the demoralizing effects that you are seeing aside from the gratuitous corruption and graft. Robert Cialdini did a solid book on influence.

You might find either an interesting read from a defensive point of view since these things usually fly under the radar and bubble up afterwards. We are at a very precarious time in history.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#83

Post by piloto_ciego »

I see a lot of comments critiquing this perspective, but very few attempts to refute it.

I have been noticing a trend towards saying people are simultaneously awful and fundamentally unable to make any choices. Those two ideas are at odds with one another.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#84

Post by Tagbert »

morpheos137 wrote: post #81
Nevermark wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There are psychology experiments which indicate that the explanation for a decision is generated after the decision is made. Beyond experiments, there just isn't an alternative. Unless our decision making was completely conscious and objective (lists, arithmetic, logical selection or elimination, etc.) then it includes subconscious components (feelings, instinct, intuition, reflex, etc.) whose processes we don't kn…

What will really blow your mind is when "you" learn there is no "you."

I would say that I am We and we don’t all talk to each other.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#85

Post by brutusborn »

stametseater wrote: post #78
brutusborn wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that people take a little knowledge and run with it (myself included). But doesn’t the mere existence of random processes in quantum theory suggest that there is a route for non-deterministic action (I.e. free will). So although quantum randomness cannot currently be linked to consciousness, there’s no fundamental idea in quantum theory that precludes humans affecting the “randomness” via some yet unidentifie…

Quantum physics doesn't offer a mechanism for free will, the best it offers is a "gap" for you to squeeze your god into: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_of_the_gaps

I wouldn’t say consciousness is my god, rather it is a concept I like to ponder sometimes.

Assuming you believe in determinism, what is your explanation for stochastic processes? My naive view is that you either need faith that we will discover a deterministic explanation for the perceived randomness, or you need to drop your assumption of a deterministic universe. If you drop that assumption, why do you still reject the possibility of free will?

I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I don’t think your chain of reasoning makes sense.

Edit: I decided to have a look for more knowledgeable opinions than mine, and found a Nobel laureate who thinks there is a possibility https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orchestrated_objective_reduc... . As far as I can tell none of his theory has been falsified.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#86

Post by mistermann »

stametseater wrote: post #77
mistermann wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If there are no punishments for not paying taxes, then few will pay. If there are harsh punishments, then most will pay. This is common sense. Whether or not a thing called 'free will' plays a roll simply doesn't matter. What about edge cases? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Kaczynski And if one node can defect from the system default programming, might it be possible that others can as well?

> What about edge cases? What about them? You tell me, you're the one who evidently thinks they're relevant.

They may affect the degree to which youtmr theory is true. Also, they may not be a constant over time, like in physics, so your intuition may be misleading.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#87

Post by isghoor »

There is no free will... But acting on the belief that there is no free changes the outcome. The human mind is best served by the quote of "Last Samurai": "I believe a man does what he can until his destiny is revealed to him".

Thus striking the perfect balance between effecting change when needed and acceptance of what is happening (reducing unnecessary psychological suffering).

This too is just one interpretation of free will which is truly a mechanism of no free will.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#88

Post by Nevermark »

mistermann wrote: post #74
Nevermark wrote: post #65

Free will, like our concept of ourselves and other objects as identifiable "things", is simply a useful approximation. It is useful to think of an island as a clear concept, with an area and border with the sea. But the more accurately you attempt to identify its shape, at higher and higher resolution, the more complex its perimeter and shape become. Until quantum mechanics kicks in and you have superpositions of par…

> But free will doesn't exist, even as a viable concept, at any fundamental level. Have you not accomplished the impossible: knowing what cannot be known? You may lack free will, but this remarkable ability (involuntary Oracle?) may more than make up for that shortcoming.

I agree with you where you are going completely.

Being conscious, experiencing, being able to ask these questions, ... it doesn't matter what the answers are. Mysterious or not, waking up to an existence as a self-reflecting hologram in a brain (or whatever poetic analogy fits best) is amazing.

No matter our limitations or illusions!

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#89

Post by Brian_K_White »

lapcat wrote: post #70
Brian_K_White wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither of those statements are claims that need to be explained or justified. They are proposed lines of reasoning that themseves explain and justify other arguments. You might still challenge them, but the challenge would just be your own counter statement. For instance, are you claiming that: If people aren't free to choose, they can still change just fine?

> Neither of those statements are claims that need to be explained or justified. Heh, this claim itself needs to be explained and justified. > They are proposed lines of reasoning that themseves explain and justify other arguments. I would call them unexamined assumptions. > You might still challenge them, but the challenge would just be your own counter statement. The burden of proof is on the author to support the…

Neither of those statements were statements. They were pure algebra with placeholder suppositions not declared values. There is nothing in them to contest except the definitions of the terms. Unless you are claiming they used the word "if" wrong or something there is nothing to prove or disprove.

If you want to claim the algebra is wrong, the "if this then that" is broken, then say what you think is wrong with it.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#90

Post by mistermann »

Nevermark wrote: post #88
mistermann wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But free will doesn't exist, even as a viable concept, at any fundamental level. Have you not accomplished the impossible: knowing what cannot be known? You may lack free will, but this remarkable ability (involuntary Oracle?) may more than make up for that shortcoming.

I agree with you where you are going completely. Being conscious, experiencing, being able to ask these questions, ... it doesn't matter what the answers are. Mysterious or not, waking up to an existence as a self-reflecting hologram in a brain (or whatever poetic analogy fits best) is amazing. No matter our limitations or illusions!

But if we were able to collectively realize these things, and take them seriously, don't you think it might be possible to clean up more than a few of the many gong shows humanity has had going on for centuries?
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