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We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

simonwillison.net

451–460 of 485 posts

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#451
post #252
post #52

I think characterisation of LLMs as lying is reasonable because although the intent isn't there to misrepresent the truth in answering the specific query, the intent is absolutely there in how the network is trained. The training algorithm is designed to create the most plausible text possible - decoupled from the truthfulness of the output. In a lot of cases (indeed most cases) the easiest way to make the text plaus…

I'd consider it definitional to lying that the agent knows the truth and purposefully obscures it. Without knowing what the truth is, I don't think LLMs are capable of lying

That's a great distinction to draw.

I think it will split in two. There will be cases where the LLM has the truth represented in its data set and still chooses to say something else because its training has told it to produce the most plausible sounding answer, not the one closest to the truth. So this will fit closer to the idea of real lying.

A good example: I asked it what the differences in driving between Australia and New Zealand are. It confidently told me that in New Zealand you drive on the right hand side of the road while in Australia you drive on the left. I am sure it has the correct knowledge in its training data. It chose to tell me that because that is a more common answer people say when asked about driving differences because that is the more dominant difference when you look between different countries.

Then there will be cases where the subject in question has never been represented in its data set. Here I think your point is very valid.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can use that definition, but it is not how the word "lie" is commonly used. The problem is that any word that ascribes agency to the LLM will technically be incorrect. But that removes most possible descriptions of its tone and style which are a relevant part of its response. An analogy would be if ChatGPT started insulting me and calling my question stupid. Would it be wrong to call its response "rude" or "mea…

There are plenty of people who cannot admit they don’t know something and will just spout bullshit. We call them “bullshitters”, not “liars.” It’s important because of motive. A lie is told with intent to conceal a known truth. It’s not just LLM agency that’s in question, it’s human malice. Co-opting the term “lie” is a rhetorical tool used to shift the conversation from “this person/LLM is saying things that aren’t…

> There are plenty of people who cannot admit they don’t know something and will just spout bullshit. We call them “bullshitters”, not “liars.”

I agree and think there probably is a missing term in our language for the phenomenon we are observing, but it feels like splitting hairs to say the LLM is merely bulshitting and not lying. For the average person dealing with ChatGPT this distinction won't matter, and saying ChatGPT sometimes "lies" more clearly communicates the possible negative downside of its answer than saying it sometimes "bullshits" (especially for low literacy or non-native speakers).

I mean, isn't bullshitting still a kind of lie? It's an implicit lie that one is qualified and intends to speak the truth. Certainly it is a kind of deception about one's qualifications, even if that is self-deception. It seems like we are just arguing about shades of gray when it's unclear why that matters.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#453
post #416
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They definitely need to add some guardrails to warn it can’t read URLs like they do when you try to ask anything fun.

What is the point? In a couple of months the plugins will be generally available and then it will be able to.

The point is to not mislead people about what is going on, of course.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#454
post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's terrible about some Wikipedia pages is when you personally don't know they are controversial. It should be vastly more prominent when there are tensions on an article and even admins shouldn't have the power to hide this.

Good point. Would it be that hard to write a Chrome plugin that adds a "Tensionmeter" to each Wikipedia page? Based on the edit and discussion history, the Tensionmeter could be green, yellow, or red. The different parts of the article text could be colorcoded according to similar metrics.

I wonder what it would be for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toilet_paper_orientation

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#455
post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>What’s wrong with: “it is often wrong”? Good q; the problem is the passive voice The passive voice connotes far less urgency and importance to any warning. Even "It is often dangerously wrong.", is still a more passive phrasing than "It will lie to you, with a highly confidant tone." I also cringe a bit at using active verbs that imply agency and intent in a statistical model; it makes an inaccurate implication abo…

May I ask why? How is this not “paternalistic”? Why protect the people, from what? Is this worse than what they are already exposed to on a daily basis? Does facebook say it fucks you up and makes you an addict? Why this urge to enforce “truth in advertising”? I am not saying you shouldn’t do it, it’s just that I do not get why and the article doesn’t mention it. It is somehow a given that The People need to be prote…

>>How is this not “paternalistic”?

I see three categories of handling this issue, perhaps call them "Paternalistic", "Responsible", and "Anti-Social".

- Paternalistic would be like: "We assess [thing] to be dangerous in a number of ways and so we forbid you to use [thing], except by using our high priesthood representatives as intermediaries".

- Responsible would be like: We assess [thing] to be dangerous in a number of ways, so we clearly inform you that [thing] is dangerous, specify the risks, and how to avoid or mitigate them. You are then free to use [thing] as you see fit. (Note: if using [thing] badly causes public as well as private risks, it is responsible to require training, tests, and licensing to use [thing] in public).

- Anti-Social would be like: We know [thing] is dangerous, but we DGAF what happens, you should figure it out all by yourself, and if you have a problem, piss-off. Examples: giving a CRT monitor to a novice hardware hacker who has only ever seen LED monitors and not telling her in detail about the high-voltage capacitor hazards inside or how to deal with them. Giving a gun to someone without the basic rules (always treat it as if it's loaded, never point it at anything you do not intend to destroy, trigger finger discipline, etc.). A mere "Hey, watch it with that thing" is inadequate, and you'd rightly bear responsibility when they electrocute themselves, shoot themselves in the foot, etc.

A decent warning around LLMs could be: "Be warned: while this system can produce amazing and useful results it will frequently lie to you, and with great confidence. Be sure to check all results independently. Do NOT USE IT for any life-critical or potentially life-changing decisions. E.g., Do NOT use it as a sole source for medical diagnoses, as it may give a misdiagnosis that would kill you [0]. Do NOT use it as a sole source for therapy, as it may counsel you to suicide [1]. These are real harms, do NOT use this as the sole source of any answers." - - - Then, let them loose on it. They know about the footguns, and have been warned

Anything less borders on anti-social.

>> because they will revert to cannibalism if not properly informed

It is not that they'll revert to cannibalism if not properly informed, it is that there are potential and serious harms that are easily avoided if they are told.

The civilized thing to do when there is a bridge out ahead leading the road into raging floodwaters, is to tell your fellow travelers before they get there, not merely expect that every one of them will notice in time and handle it well.

What is a given among civilized people is that if we know something has hazards, we give warnings and information to our fellow travelers. That's not paternalistic. Paternalistic is to not give warnings, but to forbid use. And it is uncivilized and anti-social to fail to take the trouble to give full and straight information.

Informed consent is a good thing. Handing somebody what is effectively a booby-trap without telling them is not.

[0] https://inflecthealth.medium.com/im-an-er-doctor-here-s-what...

[1] https://interestingengineering.com/culture/belgian-woman-bla...

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#457
post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A series of claims have been made that can be objectively tested for their veracity, namely that pasting information, whether from Wikipedia or another source, is a way of ensuring that ChatGPT does not make false claims, or as OP stated it, ChatGPT will not "synthesize" a completion when provided with an augmented prompt that contains a sufficiently large context (such as a Wikipedia article). I have conducted such…

You’re not actually doing any research. Here is my research: https://github.com/williamcotton/empirical-philosophy/blob/m... It is clear that analytic augmentations will result in more factual information. Your claims are unfounded and untested.

Wow, great research.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#458
post #313
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

chatgpt doesn't ignore the information you put into its prompt window. but also giving it the complete context does not guarantee you correct information, because that's not how it works. Your earlier comment was "You could just ask ChatGPT what years the Mets won and it will tell you the correct answer." -- that is not accurate. That's my point. It doesn't know those facts. You might ask it that one minute and get a…

A series of claims have been made that can be objectively tested for their veracity, namely that pasting information, whether from Wikipedia or another source, is a way of ensuring that ChatGPT does not make false claims, or as OP stated it, ChatGPT will not "synthesize" a completion when provided with an augmented prompt that contains a sufficiently large context (such as a Wikipedia article). I have conducted such…

I just pasted into the prompt window the information from the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prime_ministers_of_Isr..., and asked it to base its answer on that information.

"Based on the information provided, the current Prime Minister of Israel is Benjamin Netanyahu. He took office on 29 December 2022 and is leading the 37th government with a coalition that includes Likud, Shas, UTJ, Religious Zionism, Otzma Yehudit, and Noam."

QED.

I've been testing it by using it to generate and debug fairly complex C++ code all day, which it does based on the error messages I copy into the prompt window from the compiler. It's quite good at it, better than most college students at least.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#459
post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people see the patient/well-read in the text as it reads, but have a harder time distinguishing the other more pyschopathic/delusional tendencies. People don't take some of the precautions because they don't read some of the warning signs (until it is too late). I keep wondering if it would be useful to add required "teenage" quirks to the output: more filler words like "um" and "like" (maybe even full "Valle…

You can already do the ums with a prompt. For any kind of industry regulation: the field is moving so fast that regulation will never catch it.

I didn't say "regulation". You can encourage norms in the model building stages. You can encourage norms in all sorts of places. The industry can certainly adopt "standards" or "best practices" not matter how fast the industry thinks it is moving.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not fully fleshed out in the novels, so you have to piece it out from various mentions and their implications. The two most informative descriptions, IMO, are from Dune: "Then came the Butlerian Jihad — two generations of chaos. The god of machine-logic was overthrown among the masses and a new concept was raised: “Man may not be replaced.”" and from God-Emperor: "The target of the Jihad was a machine-attitude a…

There's nothing in those quotes about humans being enslaved by AI.

"Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them."
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