Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women • Hacker News Board

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#121

Post by sdfghswe » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:38 PM UTC

1101010010 wrote: post #115

letrowekwel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends very much from social context. In my country stricter gun control has absolutely saved lives, simply because it has effectively prevented random mentally ill people from committing school shootings. It didn't make our government or police forces any more oppressive.

I'm not interested in discussing personal anecdotes, only factual history which is replete with examples of state-sponsored genocide and tyranny when the population is disarmed.

Seems to me your claims are also personal anecdotes. You claim something, the other guy claims something else. The real difference is that you're claiming that the answer is universal, whereas the other guy is saying it depends.

The way I see it you're making a stronger claim and thus have a higher burden of proof. And yet, you offered none.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#122

Post by mrshadowgoose » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:39 PM UTC

d-z-m wrote: post #68

mrshadowgoose wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I understand you're being sarcastic, but it isn't hard to realize that the compulsory veiling of women is objectively wrong. Just to be crystal clear here, I find this behavior as abhorrent as you do. But to claim that any human behavior is "objectively wrong" is asinine. What's "wrong" and "right" just exists in our heads.

I used the word "objectively" to close the door to moral relativism. However, I can defend the use of the word more thoroughly. I base my morality on the well-being of conscious creatures. What constitutes well-being is open to debate, but whatever it is, it will be facts about the state of the brain/physiology of conscious creatures in the physical universe. If you admit the physical universe is objective basis for…

> What constitutes well-being is open to debate

> actions that decrease a creatures well-being can be thought of as objectively wrong

Which results in the "rightness" and "wrongness" of those actions being open to debate, and therefore subjective.

> I base my morality on the well-being of conscious creatures.

Same as my moral compass. But I don't pretend that my definition of "well-being" is objectively correct and universal.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#123

Post by 1101010010 » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

sdfghswe wrote: post #121

1101010010 wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not interested in discussing personal anecdotes, only factual history which is replete with examples of state-sponsored genocide and tyranny when the population is disarmed.

Seems to me your claims are also personal anecdotes. You claim something, the other guy claims something else. The real difference is that you're claiming that the answer is universal, whereas the other guy is saying it depends. The way I see it you're making a stronger claim and thus have a higher burden of proof. And yet, you offered none.

You can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre and follow with a middle school history book about Germany, China or about a dozen other nations.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#124

Post by red_trumpet » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

ybinator604g3 wrote: post #49

red_trumpet wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any recent news about this? The last thing I heard was when Khamenei eventually condemned the poisonings[1], which was a month ago? [1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-64862714

School girls poisoned in many cities in concert using similar method and government officials claimed it’s nothing but hysteria and the “supreme” leader finally condemns it after a lot of bad press outside of Iran. They install cameras to find one unveiled woman but have trouble to identify who is poisoning school girls nationwide. His condemnation is there to be sold to BBC. Nobody in Iran believes him.

I didn't want to claim I believed him, just that this was the last thing I heard. So it seemed the poisonings actually stopped. But as spywaregorilla pointed out, there are very recent reports of new poisonings: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-ap...

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#125

Post by Spooky23 » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

1101010010 wrote: post #115

letrowekwel wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends very much from social context. In my country stricter gun control has absolutely saved lives, simply because it has effectively prevented random mentally ill people from committing school shootings. It didn't make our government or police forces any more oppressive.

I'm not interested in discussing personal anecdotes, only factual history which is replete with examples of state-sponsored genocide and tyranny when the population is disarmed.

There’s nothing factual about that fantastical history. Possessing a firearm doesn’t prevent state violence, if anything it justifies further escalation. An armed rabble doesn’t have a chance against trained soldiers, and a citizen militia doesn’t have a chance against artillery.

Ask the various native peoples, who at various times outgunned the then pitiful US Army, how well that worked out. Read the survivor accounts about how well the Easter Rising did in Ireland. Political movements defeat state power, period.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#126

Post by 4gotunameagain » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:41 PM UTC

sosborn wrote: post #43

victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

Do the people which get offended by nazi uniforms are fragile as well ?

The topic is much more complicated than "fragility" as you are dismissively trying to portray it. We wear clothes in civilised societies for a reason, and different types of clothes have different types of societal effects.

Your freedom ends where the the freedom of the next person's begins.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#127

Post by FormerBandmate » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:45 PM UTC

paulryanrogers wrote: post #33

1101010010 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. So you're telling me if we banned cameras in Iran, women would no longer be oppressed?

No, that's reductive, though women would be less frequently oppressed. I'm saying without cameras people will have more freedom to resist, in big and small ways. And with enough resistance they may enact meaningful change. Cameras are tightening the noose on the opposition to those in power.

America should not sell surveillance cameras to Iran.

We are not, and literally no one is advocating for this. This is entirely on Iran, and maybe the Chinese company selling them cameras if it exists

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#128

Post by sdfghswe » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:47 PM UTC

1101010010 wrote: post #123

sdfghswe wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to me your claims are also personal anecdotes. You claim something, the other guy claims something else. The real difference is that you're claiming that the answer is universal, whereas the other guy is saying it depends. The way I see it you're making a stronger claim and thus have a higher burden of proof. And yet, you offered none.

You can start with https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wounded_Knee_Massacre and follow with a middle school history book about Germany, China or about a dozen other nations.

That looks like a personal anecdote to me, exactly like what the other guy said.

He said "in my country such and such happened". And you're saying "here's an example of such and such happening".

EDIT: But now that we're at it,

> The Wounded Knee Massacre, also known as the Battle of Wounded Knee, was a massacre of nearly three hundred Lakota people by soldiers of the United States Army.

300 people seems like nothing compared to the number of people that dies every year due to (civilian) gun violence. You're just thinking binary, you're not thinking with numbers. Also your best example is from 1890. Roughly the same amount of people that died in school shootings in the first three months of this year. Your commitment to ideology is hilarious.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#129

Post by JieJie » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

sdfghswe wrote: post #36

paulryanrogers wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. Surveillance cameras have everything to do with consolidating power into fewer and fewer hands. Therefore fewer voices of dissent on the levers of power. Iran is going through a demographic shift. The protests and strikes are evidence of a desire for change. With tools like this even small acts of defiance become higher risk.

> This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. > Surveillance cameras have everything to do with consolidating power into fewer and fewer hands. Therefore fewer voices of dissent on the levers of power. > Iran is going through a demographic shift. The protests and strikes are evidence of a desire for change. With tools like this even small acts of defiance become higher risk. People with guns kill more p…

The US just invented an AI that, in a future version might one day be hooked up to all our cameras.

I would like for us to start thinking about how we want that to play out now, rather than later.

I hope you'll join us for that conversation.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#130

Post by itissid » Sat, Apr 08, 2023, 6:58 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #76

itissid wrote: post #23

I've personally known 2 women from Iran who are not fans of the US foreign policy, but become red with anger and visibly shaking when talking about their govt's treatment of women.

I get impressed every time I see those people that don't see that the most effective thing supporting the current Iran government is the US foreign policy. Really, I can't understand why this worldview comes from.

Would the current Iran government collapse if the US removed all the sanctions and let Iran be? Historically a 180 reversal on sanctions on countries while the regimes were in place has never really been fully tested or known to work.