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Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

reuters.com

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Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#71

Post by squarefoot »

ybinator604g3 wrote: post #56
sosborn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

Is it really a choice when you are talking about religion? I am from Iran. In the school they teach (scare) children that if you don’t wear hijab, you will be hanged from your hair and burned on a stick till eternity in hell after you die. By the way that subject is not elective. You have to pass it. What kind of choice is this? Update (context): I am not talking about the people in west who want to (not)wear hijab.…

Many years ago I had a colleague who was a pretty good engineer from Morocco, also a very nice guy. He left his country and was almost disowned by his own family for being an atheist, a condition which over there I imagine is quite rare and dangerous even nowadays, although we have a good set of examples of discrimination in the west too.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#72

Post by 1101010010 »

paulryanrogers wrote: post #33
1101010010 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. So you're telling me if we banned cameras in Iran, women would no longer be oppressed?

No, that's reductive, though women would be less frequently oppressed. I'm saying without cameras people will have more freedom to resist, in big and small ways. And with enough resistance they may enact meaningful change. Cameras are tightening the noose on the opposition to those in power.

> women would be less frequently oppressed.

That does not logically follow; another technology would just as soon take the place of surveillance cameras (phone tracking, social stigma, stricter laws and punishment). It is the intent of the oppressor and the courage of a culture to resist it that matters most.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#73

Post by 1101010010 »

potsandpans wrote: post #63
1101010010 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. So you're telling me if we banned cameras in Iran, women would no longer be oppressed?

check this out, I'm gonna get on the internet and argue in bad faith

Blaming asymmetrically powerful technology before man's own perverted ego is simply misguided.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#74

Post by amelius »

sosborn wrote: post #43
victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

I don't get offended but I've noticed that when people wear the hood of their hoodies in public transit, I sometimes feel a bit uneasy about not being able to see their faces. So I'm thinking there is a non-religious aspect to the discussion.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#75

Post by [deleted] »

Centigonal wrote: post #45
itissid wrote: post #23

I've personally known 2 women from Iran who are not fans of the US foreign policy, but become red with anger and visibly shaking when talking about their govt's treatment of women.

A lot of Iranians see US foreign policy as aiding or even causing the current Iranian government.

[deleted]

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#76

Post by marcosdumay »

itissid wrote: post #23

I've personally known 2 women from Iran who are not fans of the US foreign policy, but become red with anger and visibly shaking when talking about their govt's treatment of women.

I get impressed every time I see those people that don't see that the most effective thing supporting the current Iran government is the US foreign policy.

Really, I can't understand why this worldview comes from.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#77

Post by colechristensen »

nashashmi wrote: post #42
victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It is the opposite. Feminists are fundamentally anti religion and anti establishment. If govt is railing against what women can do, feminists are the first to fight. If religion is dictating what women can/should do, feminists will be the first to fight. Feminists are to authority like atheists are to religion.

I had a conversation with a young progressive atheist woman about first hand accounts with women of Muslim backgrounds wearing the mandated clothing out of fear. She had a hard time accepting that what people said and how they acted publicly wasn’t the whole story. I used to smoke weed with some people that included some Muslim girls who would talk openly about what they were afraid of and the family pressures. If you don’t actually know people well you don’t get the whole story.

In other words I’ve had direct experience with feminists who supported religious clothing in a misguided attempt to support other cultures.

I’m of course not saying that there aren’t people who freely choose to wear such things. But it’s rarely without at least some pressure. We should be careful about what we force people to do but also be aware that not everyones outward choices are free.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#78

Post by tomohelix »

sosborn wrote: post #43
victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It's real simple: "Don't take away my choice to wear what I want." For whatever reason, fragile people get real offended by what other people wear.

The problem is these has been equated to symbols of oppression. Tbf, they serve no practical purpose and are deeply tied to religious practices that have caused lots of problems where they are from.

A similar thing would be the ban of wearing nazi symbols.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#79

Post by revscat »

nashashmi wrote: post #42
victorcreator wrote: post #32

Meanwhile, feminists in the western world fight to wear a hijab, burkha, abaya, etc. and don’t see them as signs of oppression. I wish i understood the logic. Wish we could all stand up against this together.

It is the opposite. Feminists are fundamentally anti religion and anti establishment. If govt is railing against what women can do, feminists are the first to fight. If religion is dictating what women can/should do, feminists will be the first to fight. Feminists are to authority like atheists are to religion.

This has been my experience, especially given the predominance of governments that are to some degree controlled by fundamentalist sects. It goes against the unspoken orthodoxy of what feminism is, though, so I do not expect your opinion to be a popular one here. I would say that there is a lot of overlap between atheism and feminism though.

Re: Iran installs cameras in public places to identify, penalise unveiled women

#80

Post by 1101010010 »

sdfghswe wrote: post #36
paulryanrogers wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. Surveillance cameras have everything to do with consolidating power into fewer and fewer hands. Therefore fewer voices of dissent on the levers of power. Iran is going through a demographic shift. The protests and strikes are evidence of a desire for change. With tools like this even small acts of defiance become higher risk.

> This reminds me of the "guns don't kill people" argument. > Surveillance cameras have everything to do with consolidating power into fewer and fewer hands. Therefore fewer voices of dissent on the levers of power. > Iran is going through a demographic shift. The protests and strikes are evidence of a desire for change. With tools like this even small acts of defiance become higher risk. People with guns kill more p…

> People with guns kill more people than people without guns.

The irony of this statement is government is historically responsible for the most deaths as they are best armed. When technology like firearms are decentralized and more people have access to them, fewer overall deaths occur and more individual freedom ensues.

Same concept for cameras, when they are pointed at police and agents of the state by citizens.

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