Live data from Hacker News

The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

read.lukeburgis.com

21–30 of 91 posts

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#21
"In the Jewish and Christian traditions, free will has been foundational"

"The view from Athens (the city of Reason) has been mixed"

Come on, isn't this just a bit of a narrow-minded set of premises to start arguing from? Can't we at least stretch out Athens to encompass the Babylonian and Egyptian astronomers and numerologists, at least? And, hey, why'll were at it, you could admit that the Abrahamic tradition that this all is apparently opposed to does include Islam as one of the three main branches, hmm???

Oh gosh, and look, there are these Hindus and Buddhists and Shintoists and Taoists and pagans and what not who've probably been debating free will since before Abraham was born.

Perhaps nobody has ever pointed this out to you? I'll be charitable and take account for ignorance before proceeding to condemnation.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#22
post #15

> If there’s no free will, every solution must be a top-down one. If people aren’t free to choose, then “people don’t change”—they can’t change. Neither of these claims is justified or even explained by the author.

The loss of societies's expectations to support a claim with an argument is dangerous.

Constructing an argument to defend this statement is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#23
This article is a lot of puffery to make two not very strong points half way through that, to me, stand out at the reason the article was written in the first place.

> The denial of free will is probably behind the view that if you’re born with a certain color of skin you have blind spots that you are incapable of seeing or escaping from unless you submit to programmatic training by the people who accuse you

Which basically boils down to "I felt uncomfortable in my D&I training at work" and don't like people telling me that, no, I'm not the exception among white people and don't have internalized prejudice formed over anywhere between 20-50 years of fleshy machine learning. Everyone thinks that and everyone is wrong. It doesn't even work like that, it's not a thing you are or aren't.

Honestly I can't tell at this point if it's a failure of people involved in diversity training or a huge success for the people trying to undermine it that this confusion persists so strongly.

> If there’s no free will, every solution must be a top-down one. If people aren’t free to choose, then “people don’t change”—they can’t change. It’s fair to write them off forever or make irrevocable choices in relation to them.

"I don't like when rules are made with a systems point of view because, again, I don't need it and exceptions should be made for me." It can't be that people respond to the incentive structures they're placed under and changing those structures changes behavior. Or the same thing from the other angle anything that causes a broad social change on an individual level was top down we're just pretending not to see what changed the tide.

---

Unrelated but also not unexpected given the rest of the article.

> A society that loses its belief in freedom loses the ability to believe in conversion [...] It loses hope A person can justify any action because they were “born this way.”

I accept that I could be reading into it because the author is talking about crime but this seems to subtweeting the lgbt hard. There are basically no other modern usages of the phrase "born this way" that aren't medical or makeup. It's hard not to see this as someone who's frustrated at not being able reject someone's sexuality because they were in fact born that way; the "unnatural lifestyle choice" is a piece of rhetoric that's never really left us.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#24
post #9

[flagged]

Buddhists don’t believe in science. But science believers don’t necessarily not believe in truth.

“If science proved some belief of Buddhism wrong, then Buddhism will have to change” Dalai Lama

I’d say most if not all Buddhist sects believe in the validity of the scientific method for discovering knowledge. But that this knowledge is still empty.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#25
post #23

This article is a lot of puffery to make two not very strong points half way through that, to me, stand out at the reason the article was written in the first place. > The denial of free will is probably behind the view that if you’re born with a certain color of skin you have blind spots that you are incapable of seeing or escaping from unless you submit to programmatic training by the people who accuse you Which ba…

> Everyone thinks that and everyone is wrong. It doesn't even work like that, it's not a thing you are or aren't.

Yikes. Found the true believer.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#26

[flagged]

> It used to feel like the people in power had a certain set of beliefs, good or bad, but at least predictable. Now it feels like nobody believes in anything except inasmuch as it helps them win.

I think logical consistency was never really there. It is just harder to maintain the illusion of logical consistency when politicians are expected to tweet five times a day, instead of issue press releases a few times a month.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#27

> In the Jewish and Christian traditions, free will has been foundational This is not correct in the case of Christianity, I can't comment on Judaism because I'm not familiar enough with it. In the Catholic tradition the importance and nature of free will varies a lot depending on the period, in Protestantism there's a significant emphasis on predestination. Starting with debates between Erasmus and Luther, but most…

It’s somewhat true of Judaism: the duty to obey god presumes the ability to disobey, without which there’s no meaningful sense in which a duty can exist. In other words: duties cannot be involuntary, and so the mitzvah requires free will.

However, as you’ve noted: this wasn’t integrated into all (or even most) Christian doctrines, and so the author’s Judeo-Christian-style argument doesn’t really hold water. It reads closer to paleoconservative rhetoric around fundamental unity between the two (with the implication that Islam is somehow fundamentally different).

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#28

This is reactionary drivel, of the first order: make up a claim (that people “no longer believe” in freedom), and then somersault backwards into blaming whoever’s on the menu today (in this case, vague motions towards social justice). One might wonder whether these sorts of authors find themselves involuntarily compelled to write these sorts of things. No amount of actually asking people what they believe would suppo…

Why is "reactionary" inherently wrong or "progressive" inherently correct? Why can't people use more clear language rather than relying on Whig history to make their points. If what they are saying is morally wrong according to the truth (and that might be so), clearly state why that is the case rather than obscuring with terms like "progressive", "social justice" or "reactionary".

“We are fond of talking about 'liberty'; but the way we end up actually talking of it is an attempt to avoid discussing what is 'good.' We are fond of talking about 'progress'; that is a dodge to avoid discussing what is good. We are fond of talking about 'education'; that is a dodge to avoid discussing what is good." - G.K. Chesterton

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#29
"Without free will, there can be no real love."

What? This seems totally backwards. Author thinks that real love comes from free conscious decisiomaking? Like freely choosing which model of car to buy?

I almost laughed out loud when I got to the subhead "A Childish Conversation". Some points are okay, but overall this is just not a well argued piece. Strikes me as just conveying numerous fairly boring grievances.

Re: The Erosion of Free Will: Why Society's Loss of Belief in Freedom Is Dangerous

#30
post #23

This article is a lot of puffery to make two not very strong points half way through that, to me, stand out at the reason the article was written in the first place. > The denial of free will is probably behind the view that if you’re born with a certain color of skin you have blind spots that you are incapable of seeing or escaping from unless you submit to programmatic training by the people who accuse you Which ba…

> There are basically no other modern usages of the phrase "born this way" that aren't medical or makeup.

In defense of the author on this one point, I loved the Lady Gaga song when it first came out and I had no idea until last year the phrase "born this way" had anything to do with LBTQ+.

Some people are just dense.

Post reply on HN