Live data from Hacker News

We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

simonwillison.net

301–310 of 485 posts

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#301

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

> what dumb people think smart people are like

What do dumb people think smart people are like? Is this a trope, or common idiom? I've never heard this before.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#302
post #301

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

> what dumb people think smart people are like What do dumb people think smart people are like? Is this a trope, or common idiom? I've never heard this before.

[deleted]

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#303

I’m surprised how many users of ChatGPT don’t realize how often it makes things up. I had a conversation with an Uber driver the other day who said he used ChatGPT all the time. At one point I mentioned its tendency to make stuff up, and he didn’t know what I was talking about. I can think of at least two other non-technical people I’ve spoken with who had the same reaction.

Even people who have read news articles about ChatGPT lying often think "that was a weird, once in a blue moon bug that will be fixed soon" as opposed to "yes that's how this works and it happens constantly".

I asked ChatGPT and Bard some factual questions about elected officials and upcoming election dates. 80% of them were flat out wrong. They told me most US states were having gubernatorial elections this November, that the governor of Texas is an independent, etc - simple basic facts that you Wikipedia could show you are wrong.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#304
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding is that ChatGPT (&co.) was not designed as, and is not intended to be, any sort of expert system, or knowledge representation system. The fact that it does as well as it does anyway is pretty amazing. But even so -- as you said, it's still dealing chiefly with the statistical probability of words/tokens, not with facts and truths. I really don't "trust" it in any meaningful way, even if it already ha…

Having used GPT 4 for a while now I would say I trust its factual accuracy more than the average human you'd talk to on the street. The sheer volume of things we make up on a daily basis through no malice of our own but bad memory and wrong associations is just astounding. That said, fact checking is still very much needed. Once someone figures out how to streamline and automate that process it'll be on Google's leve…

It's interesting to imagine an "average human on the street" being put in the position that an LLM is in. If you asked someone on the street to summarise a page of React Native documentation for you, they'd probably look at you strangely and say "sorry I have a bus to catch, good luck!"

But if you had someone in a room, sat them down with a pen and paper and instructions along the lines of:

- answer the question on the page without diversion

- do not ask for additional clarifying information

- provide your answer in 3-5 paragraphs with a summary

and didn't let them leave until they'd completed the task, then .. I'm sure the results would be "worse", and much more variable, than GPT output, while being conceptually similar.

Of course, you don't ask a random person on the street to do this, probably because of social constraint, inconvenience, and the expectation that they will not do a better or faster job than you will yourself.

But if you were stuck with a stranger, began to converse, and asked them e.g. "should I get a divorce?" I imagine the conversation would go very differently. If they weren't using their agency to end the conversation as quickly as possible, I imagine there'd be back and forth asking for more detail, exploring the context, sharing their own experience, etc.

I'm rambling, but I just find it very diverting to compare not the output of LLMs versus the output of humans, but the context and situation.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#306

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

> individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's

There aren't any such individuals. Even the least intelligent human is much, much more intelligent than ChatGPT, because even the least intelligent human has some semantic connection between their mental processes and the real world. ChatGPT has none. It is not intelligent at all.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#307
post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's an alternate reality where OpenAI was, instead, EvenMoreClosedAI, and the productivity multiplier effect was held close to their chest, and only elites had access to it. I'm not sure that reality is better.

What makes you think thats not the case now? Do you think they would tell you?

It is known that some got access to GPT-4 before the rest of the world did. That OpenAI eventually released it to the world is what counts though. Hopefully GPT-5 will also be released too the world but we shall have to see.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely disagree with this idea that the model doesn't "intend" to mislead. It's trained, atleast to some degree, based on human feedback. Humans are going to prefer an answer vs no answer, and humans can be easily fooled into believing confident misinformation. How does it not stand to reason that somewhere in that big ball of vector math there might be a rationale something along the lines of "humans are more…

> How does it not stand to reason that somewhere in that big ball of vector math there might be a rationale I think, a suggestion that it is actually reasoning along these lines would need more than "it is possible". What evidence would refute your claim in your eyes, what would make it clear to you that "that big ball of vector mat" has no rationale, and is not just trying to trick humans to press the thumbs up? Of…

I would at least start to be convinced that this is NOT the case if I ever saw it respond with something like "I actually don't know the answer to that query" or "as far as I'm aware, there is no way to do the thing you asked".

These are responses that would have shown up innumerable times in it's training data and make perfect sense as "the most logical next set of tokens", and yet it will never say them.

Instead it will hallucinate something that sounds nearly indistinguishable from fact, but turns out to be a total fabrication.

If all its doing is returning the next most logical set of tokens, and the training data it was based on included a non-trivial number of examples where one party in the conversation didn't have a clear answer, then there's no reason GPT-4 should be so averse to simply saying "yeah, I dunno bro".

The only logical reason I can see is that it's "learned" that it's more likely to receive the positive feedback signal when it makes up convincing bullshit, than if it states that it doesn't have an answer.

EDIT: To be clear, I mean it telling me it doesn't know something BEFORE hallucinating something incorrect and being caught out on it by me. It will admit that it lied, AFTER being caught, but it will never (in my experience) state that it doesn't have an answer for something upfront, and will instead default to hallucinating.

Also - even when it does admit to lying, it will often then correct itself with an equally convincing, but often just as untrue "correction" to its original lie. Honestly, anyone who wants to learn how to gaslight people just needs to spend a decent amount of time around GPT-4.

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#309

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

Have you not seen current politics. What people believe is largely based on motivated reasoning rather than anything else. ChatGPT is basically a free propaganda machine, much easier that 4chan

Re: We need to tell people ChatGPT will lie to them, not debate linguistics

#310
post #301

The part that's concerning about ChatGPT is that a computer program that is "confidently wrong" is basically indistinguishable from what dumb people think smart people are like. This means people are going to believe ChatGPT's lies unless they are repeatedly told not to trust it just like they believe the lies of individuals whose intelligence is roughly equivalent to ChatGPT's. Based on my understanding of the appro…

> what dumb people think smart people are like What do dumb people think smart people are like? Is this a trope, or common idiom? I've never heard this before.

the more common idiom is "XYZ is a stupid person's idea of what a smart person looks like" and it's usually applied to slimy hucksters or influencers. I think the archetypical example is the "bookshelves in my garage" guy who went viral years ago. (https://youtu.be/Cv1RJTHf5fk)
Post reply on HN