What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus • Hacker News Board

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#51

Post by DiggyJohnson » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

nathan_compton wrote: post #40

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus being a "good guy" is fundamental to the role he plays in Christianity. How could you see it any other way?

From some Christians' points of view the important part of the Jesus story is that he is sacrificed by God as a way of dealing with a fundamental break between humanity and God having to do with the Jewish priesthood.

That is the other important aspect of the Jesus story. He was the son of God in human flesh, exemplified by the manner in which he lived ("good guy") and by his teachings.

Yet he was betrayed by one of his disciples, and died a distinctly "low death". I think it's more correct to say that God sent Jesus down to Earth and Jesus sacrificed himself / God forsake him, than "he is sacrificed by God". This is probably a bit nitpicky from your perspective.

My main point is that there is no Christians that do not hold the following two aspects of Jesus as extremely important:

(1) The life of Jesus: how he lived and what he taught

(2) Jesus sacrificed on the cross

Frankly, I think you're not familiar with Christian teachings if you claim otherwise, i.e. by disagreeing with a person who says that Jesus being a "good guy" is an important aspect of the Christian faith. It is important, unequivocally.

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#52

Post by krapp » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:39 PM UTC

jononomo wrote: post #34

Once I was convinced of the existence of God by considering the fact that life exists, it became easier for me to accept Christianity. Frankly, it's a relief. But, unfortunately, Christianity has a bad reputation now because of Trump.

Christianity had a bad reputation long, long before Trump, although American Evangelicals falling in for him so hard did them no favors. Ask Native Americans what they think of Christianity, for instance. Or Muslims. Or Jews. Or any minority group persecuted by the Church. Or anyone abused by the Catholic Church.

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#53

Post by v-erne » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

nathan_compton wrote: post #40

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus being a "good guy" is fundamental to the role he plays in Christianity. How could you see it any other way?

From some Christians' points of view the important part of the Jesus story is that he is sacrificed by God as a way of dealing with a fundamental break between humanity and God having to do with the Jewish priesthood.

>> having to do with the Jewish priesthood

I do not remember this part of old testament. Care to elaborate?

>> fundamental break between humanity and God

This is not the first time when I heard this put this way but it is first time when it dawned on me how in this biblical context humanity is restricted to small parts of middle east - so I guess sorry Chinese, American & Australian natives from that time ?

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#54

Post by oh_sigh » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:44 PM UTC

calvinmorrison wrote: post #24

warent wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing it seems is that his myth a part of our stories, and who we are, throughout a large part of the world. Myths tell us about ourselves. The sad thing is when people distort or weaponize myth to control others for personal egocentric agendas. Ultimately many of his apparent teachings seem to be timeless: finding joy in living simply; understanding that heaven is within; etc. Lots of overlap with Budd…

If you think Jesus being a 'good guy' is the most important part of Jesus, that's absolutely missing the point of Christianity.

Assuming you believe in an immortal soul, what else would you call someone who is trying to get you to save your immortal soul?

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#55

Post by Scubabear68 » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:45 PM UTC

nathan_compton wrote: post #40

DiggyJohnson wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus being a "good guy" is fundamental to the role he plays in Christianity. How could you see it any other way?

From some Christians' points of view the important part of the Jesus story is that he is sacrificed by God as a way of dealing with a fundamental break between humanity and God having to do with the Jewish priesthood.

This obviously is very important.

However, the more important aspect of Jesus’ teachings was to steer believers away from the Old Testament and Jewish faith, and into something new.

Jesus is the catalyst for change from one religion to a new one based on the old. Indeed, one of the many contradictions of Christianity is having the New Testament contradict the Old Testament in so many ways.

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#56

Post by v-erne » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:55 PM UTC

justanotherjoe wrote: post #20

RC_ITR wrote: post #4

The Historicity of Jesus is such an interesting topic. There almost certainly was a man from Nazareth named Jesus (we have pretty good unbiased sources there). However, unless you are a follower of his (or potentially some related religions), there are obviously mystical things associated with him that you likely do not believe to actually have happened. Even followers disagree about the veracity of certain stories.…

Well according to our understanding, on stories like these they usually embelish on the 'origin' part. In the case of the bible, the story of the archangel gabriel visiting Mary is number one on the suspect of being an embelishment. And speaking of being 'historical', as in written down by a witness, there are things in the bible that strikes me as 'filled in'. I only go to church during easter, so it I had it read t…

That's a great point about what bible or rather any holy book actually is - just a collection of stories that were passed from person to person (and we all know that we always tell the stories the same way, without mistake here and there, right?) and then written down at some point in time and curated, filtred and rounded up by clergy (which did not have any interests in the shape ot the stories, only truth, right?).

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#57

Post by AlbertCory » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 5:58 PM UTC

delecti wrote: post #30

AlbertCory wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you actually read the article? Or any of the other historical scholarship?

I did read the article, and it seems to be entirely things like "there's no evidence Jesus was there, but historians say he could have been" or "according to the Gospels". Neither of those rise remotely to the level of what I'd call "evidence". The former establishes that the historical Jesus is plausible, but that could just as easily mean that the authors who invented Jesus were aware of the real-world setting thei…

No, it isn't.

The historical Jesus did exist, and as they say, no scholar believes otherwise.

Bethlehem, miracles, etc. do indeed have no proof. Why he was crucified: no proof there either.

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#58

Post by delecti » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 6:12 PM UTC

AlbertCory wrote: post #57

delecti wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did read the article, and it seems to be entirely things like "there's no evidence Jesus was there, but historians say he could have been" or "according to the Gospels". Neither of those rise remotely to the level of what I'd call "evidence". The former establishes that the historical Jesus is plausible, but that could just as easily mean that the authors who invented Jesus were aware of the real-world setting thei…

No, it isn't. The historical Jesus did exist, and as they say, no scholar believes otherwise. Bethlehem, miracles, etc. do indeed have no proof. Why he was crucified: no proof there either.

I'm not sure which of the many things I said your "No, it isn't" is in response to.

I care less about what the scholars believe, than I do about wanting to hear some scrap of evidence for it. There's a ton of evidence that the stories in the bible could have happened (churches existed at the right places and right times, it references real-world people and places), I just haven't seen any evidence that they did.

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#59

Post by glaugh » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 6:13 PM UTC

The Jesuit high school I went to had a class “Jesus of History, Christ of Faith”, that looked at what we do and don’t know about a historical Jesus (at least as of ~2000).

I’m sure I’d had my doubts before, but that class convinced me to stop believing for good.

Gotta hand it to the Jesuits for teaching that class though; all these years later and I still have a lot of respect for that order

Re: What archaeology is telling us about the real Jesus

#60

Post by AlbertCory » Fri, Apr 07, 2023, 6:16 PM UTC

MilStdJunkie wrote: post #35

Christ's period in some ways is evocative of our own. An ancient sky-god-worshipping ethnicity having their first attempt at integrating into a secular culture, but then violently rejecting it, searching for God quite literally among the common straw. It sounds like the origin story for Flat Earth, or any of the other new faith movements we've been seeing lately, as the technocracy has spun out of democratic control.…

I think the story of Paul is the real story of Christianity. He was the one, with his partners, who went all over the ancient world and converted people to this idea. Your analysis seems to ignore all that completely.

Jesus' brother James was in Jerusalem long after the crucifixion, and he and his followers thought Jesus' preaching was just for Jews. Paul had the radical idea of preaching to the Gentiles. They didn't like that, and called him back to Jerusalem to explain himself. He was undeterred.