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‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

quantamagazine.org

61–70 of 132 posts

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#61
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All soon to be obsoleted by ChatGPT. /s (I agree with your point and share your appreciation.)

Sarcasm aside. Even the output from GPT-4 is quite bland and generic. Very good for performing tasks (I.e convert a blob of text into a knowledge graph or generate X code), but quite awful at the elegant prose we see at play Wonder how long before that’s solved. Hard to believe training on such large swathes of the web doesn’t result a compressed generic representation of language within its weights.

Seems mostly solved with prompting. I.e. "Rewrite this essay in the style of John Steinbeck." Works quite well.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#62
post #12

Sincere question: could it be that the underlying structure of the universe is really simple but since we have no idea what it is we have to use exotic mathematics for it?

Everything is simple, given the right notation (and the concepts underlying it).

The original Maxwell theory of electromagnetism is about 10 rather involved equations. Maxwell-Heaviside form is 4 simpler equations. A formulation using differential 3-forms is 2 simple equations. A formulation using geometric algebra / Clifford algebra is one utterly simple equation.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#63
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some think the underlying structure of the universe is mathematics. That is, the universe isn’t merely describe by mathematics, but it is a mathematical structure.

I see mathematics as a rigorous highly consistent descriptive language. Physics theories expressed mathematically are very precise descriptions of observed behaviour, but calling them laws is deceptive. The fact that they align precisely to observed behaviour just indicates that the behaviour of physical systems is highly consistent. Well, I hope so. If reality was inconsistent and things happened arbitrarily with no…

You shouldn’t see mathematics as consistent because they are not.

A system can be complete, meaning all true statements can be built based on axioms, but it cannot be sound leading to contradictions.

Alternatively a system may be sound, but not all true statements could be derived.

And finally there are statements impossible to prove because the proof is undecidable.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#64
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kinds of physical influences that are allowed in Newtonian physics are more general than those allowed in relativity. Relativity requires physics to satisfy constraints . Which is more complex depends on what you mean. There are fewer laws in the possibility space of generally-relativistic physics than Newtonian physics. So, which metric is more important? Less pleasant calculations or a larger search space? Your…

> most physicists would come down on the other side of the issue. What's your reason for saying this? I'm more on the mathematical side of things so I don't know that many physicists. But it's been my understanding that equations that are extremely difficult to solve, impossible to solve except numerically, or involve infinities that can't be explained, are a major pain point for physicists. I mean, that's the entire…

Theoretical physicists are like enterprise architects, there seems to be a preference for generality of prescription over practical experimentation/implementation.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first fundamental step in any physics model (or theory) is to separate the easily describable "laws" from the almost impossible to describe "state". The perhaps surprising question is why anything at all can be separated but if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. "Going down" simply means identifying laws that are more universal in that they can underly models of different systems, idea…

> Quantum weirdness isn't significantly harder mathematically than what came before (we don't have an objective measure of how "hard" some piece of math is), it's just harder to relate to everyday experience. We absolutely have a way to measure how hard a piece of math is: computational complexity. And quantum mecanichs is more computationally complex than newtonian mechanics (while general relativity is significantl…

> And quantum mecanichs is more computationally complex than newtonian mechanics (while general relativity is significantly harder still than both of them)

Is there a formal version of this claim somewhere? (Beyond theorems about quantum computers)

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#66
So one question I have in the introduction section is that it seems the article misses the difference between the number of Feynman diagrams to calculate a_n and the value of a_n. They point out that the the number of Feyman diagrams grows ~n!, which is much larger than the rate x^n shrinks (given 0Based on my limited knowledge of particle physics, physicists are currently able to calculate using Feynman diagrams because a_n does grow less than x^n shrinks. There are some equations (I think dealing with specific forces/fields) where the constant it larger than others which makes calculates much harder. x ~=.7 shrinks much slower than x~=.007. Yet even then the general trend does hold and it does allow for making calculations which can then be tested against experimental data.

What we find is that our calculations do match the experimental data. It isn't a perfect match, there is room for error and confidence intervals and such. The important point is that what this article suggest doesn't seem to happen. If at some point a_n grew much faster than x^n shrunk, then the real world solution would diverge and our answer from calculating n out to 5 wouldn't closely match the data. It almost sounds like the article is suggesting things will diverge only once we calculate out for n>100 or so, but reality doesn't await for those calculations. If this problem really existed, it would happen because reality is calculating out n all the way to infinity even while the physicists can not.

So I'm left with two possible conclusions.

1. The article is misunderstanding the relationship between the number of Feynman diagrams needed to calculate a_n and a_n itself.

2. The real critique is that the current model is wrong because the model diverges, not that reality itself diverges. Thus while this model is approximate for what we currently calculate, it is inherently wrong.

The second issue is an interesting idea. A model that looks correct and is correct for all calculations done so far, but which may no be correct for more detailed calculations but which we do not and will not have the computation power to test at that level.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#67

One sentence from Wikipedia: > "Resurgent functions" are divergent power series whose Borel transforms converge in a neighborhood of the origin and give rise, by means of analytic continuation, to (usually) multi-valued functions, but these multi-valued functions have merely isolated singularities without singularities that form cuts with dimension one or greater. Cool!

Yeah, sounds cool.

Regardless, I think we can all agree super compact massively heavy objects do in fact exist. We have pictures of black holes, we can see infrared time-laps images spanning decades of stars whipping around an undefined point in space.... they certainly do exist. Does all that matter collapse to an asymptotic point beyond Planck space? Perhaps not, it could simply be really compact degenerate matter, inside the Schwarzschild radius, like a quark-gluon plasma, or whatever might go above such high energies. And whatever that stuff is, it could perhaps not collapse to single point, it just gets really hot, and really dense.

Recently Eric Weinstein has been making the rounds on internet podcasts, for example Joe Rogan and the likes... getting what we might call academically belligerent about singularities, and all the "(re)normalisation" that gets explained away to balance equations. His characterisation of the situation is charismatic, and to some extent persuasive. But I dunno, he seems kinda weird.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#68
post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The kinds of physical influences that are allowed in Newtonian physics are more general than those allowed in relativity. Relativity requires physics to satisfy constraints . Which is more complex depends on what you mean. There are fewer laws in the possibility space of generally-relativistic physics than Newtonian physics. So, which metric is more important? Less pleasant calculations or a larger search space? Your…

> most physicists would come down on the other side of the issue. What's your reason for saying this? I'm more on the mathematical side of things so I don't know that many physicists. But it's been my understanding that equations that are extremely difficult to solve, impossible to solve except numerically, or involve infinities that can't be explained, are a major pain point for physicists. I mean, that's the entire…

My reasons are

- I'm a professional physicist and most people I know professionally think this way. People like symmetry, it helps clarify things, simplify things, provides powerful principles. If the cost is practical difficulties, well, that's just the cost of doing business; the physical understanding offered by simpler rules is beneficial. I know at least 2 people mentioned in the article would agree with that.

- I have no conceptual problem saying that the only solutions are numerical in nature if the principles are clear. Nobody promised physics should be easy. In fact some of the people mentioned in the article also have shown how their formal understanding might unlock better numerical methods!

- Some infinities are worse than others, and a modern effective field theory perspective makes me not worry about most examples.* With a Wilsonian understanding, renormalization is perfectly simple to understand. For theories which have perturbative UV fixed points you can formulate a lattice discretization which flows to that fixed point and you never encounter any infinity along the way.

Theories without a perturbative UV fixed point, well, that's where the trouble lies. Either there is no UV fixed point, in which case the theory is not valid for all energy scales and the troubling divergences point to an energy scale beyond which your theory is invalid. Or there IS a UV fixed point but it can only be found nonperturbatively.

Handed a QFT with no perturbative UV fixed point, how should you decide?

Well, one step back: should you, as a physicist, care?

For instance, why should we worry whether QED as a standalone theory is UV-complete? We know that in the real world electrodynamics mixes with the weak force at high energy. So whether QED as a standalone theory is UV-complete is a question that I'm not worried about. It is an interesting mathematical question, and that can only be answered with new techniques, such as resurgence. For standalone QED it's a question of pure mathematics, as far as anyone can tell. That's what these tools are good for, at the moment.

HOWEVER. I do admire the program of trying to show that more quantum field theories even exist mathematically, beyond the handful that we already know (which tend to have exotic properties). That seems important to me. But if it's false that's ALSO extremely interesting, it suggests that there are additional principles that we ought to understand.

* except for gravity, where the divergences are SO bad that even the EFT approach has problems.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first fundamental step in any physics model (or theory) is to separate the easily describable "laws" from the almost impossible to describe "state". The perhaps surprising question is why anything at all can be separated but if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having this conversation. "Going down" simply means identifying laws that are more universal in that they can underly models of different systems, idea…

> Quantum weirdness isn't significantly harder mathematically than what came before (we don't have an objective measure of how "hard" some piece of math is), it's just harder to relate to everyday experience. We absolutely have a way to measure how hard a piece of math is: computational complexity. And quantum mecanichs is more computationally complex than newtonian mechanics (while general relativity is significantl…

Is there any formal proof of this computational complexity ladder you mention? Saying quantum is more complex than classical seems to imply P != NP. I don’t know nearly enough about general relativity to know how complex that is, though I’d have assumed it’d be less than quantum.

Re: ‘Alien calculus’ could save particle physics from infinities

#70
post #12

Sincere question: could it be that the underlying structure of the universe is really simple but since we have no idea what it is we have to use exotic mathematics for it?

I think this ends up being a question that is the cousin of Bertrand's paradox. In that case, the English words in the original question, despite feeling concrete in what they ask for, leave enough vagueness to give different ways to solve the problem that all seem to satisfy the query but give incompatible answers. I say this because I see two similar phrases in your query that seem to carry equal levels of assumptions.

First is the idea of simple. If something has a few very well defined rules that are understood in isolation, but whose emergent behavior is beyond our ability to define, is it simple? Conway's Game of Life is somewhat the default example. 2 very simple rules (or perhaps more, depending upon specifically how you count them), but it gives rise to a Turing complete system. Math itself is another example, as mathematicians seek to find simple rules from which math arises, yet even for the subsets of math that are limited to such rules, is it really fair to call it simple?

The second idea is that of an underlying structure. Does the universe have an underlying structure, and even if it does, does that exist in side of some more foreign concept? What happens before the big bang? Why did the big bang happen when it did? Are there other universes, both from the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics, and universes that entirely separate from our own. These seem questions that feel almost entirely in the realm of science fiction, not physics, but there are plenty of theoretical physicists who dive into this field even though it currently doesn't produce testable hypothesis and is thus outside the scope of proper science.

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