No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0) • Hacker News Board

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#31

Post by throw0101c » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:23 AM UTC

johannes1234321 wrote: post #25

legulere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that work on standards costs a lot of money. Somehow we need to pay for that. The solution could be the state.

The fun is: The fees for obtaining the standard doesn't really go to the ones who create the standard. Standard is created by volunteers typically sponsored by their employer to go to standards meetings, who also pay (depending on national body) for being members.

> The fun is: The fees for obtaining the standard doesn't really go to the ones who create the standard.

The standard organization itself has and needs some infrastructure to exist, and that has to be paid for.

While the folks getting together creating the standards are (often) sponsored by their employer, the employer thinks this is a net benefit because they get a say in setting it, after which they can turn around and sell more product(s) based on the standard.

The standards organization themselves do not have such an option, but they still have bills to pay.

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#32

Post by _a9 » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:27 AM UTC

Titan2189 wrote: post #22

Unsure how long it'll be valid, but to save you having to enter fake details, here you go: https://www.pdfa-inc.org/?download_file=2009&order=wc_order_...

Thanks, popped into archive.org too https://web.archive.org/web/20230406111824/https://www.pdfa-...

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#33

Post by pas » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:27 AM UTC

vasco wrote: post #8

dawidpotocki wrote: post #4

> ISO 32000-2 was also, however, the first and only core PDF specification published exclusively — and only for purchase — by ISO, inhibiting its use and adoption over the last five years. Who would have thought that "international standards" that require payment don't work well? How many people are willing to spend a couple hundred CHFs to access the PDF specs? Also it seems insane to me that the PDF creator, Adobe,…

When nobody tells lawyers no, this is what happens. This protects nobody other than some lawyers feeling fuzzy that they "mitigated risks" for their customer.

this an old school organization, they don't really have any incentives to be user friendly. they manage a lot of standards, it's a stable gig, they are doing okay, so they did what usually old school organizations do, they got an EULA decade(s) ago and now it's just there and maybe gets updated from time to time. buf no one even questions the need for it.

maybe if more things move online, if they face some serious competition, then they might start thinking about these as potential UX issues

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#34

Post by DannyBee » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:34 AM UTC

bottled_poe wrote: post #21

newaccount74 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that a lawyers job is to provide advise, not to make decisions.

Poorly conceived advice apparently.

Only in the minds of HN engineers. Lawyers who tell their clients to do nothing rather than actually help try to figure out a path forward go out of business very quickly.

In-house counsel is a little different but again even at places like IBM the lawyers could not get away with blocking meaningful business

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#35

Post by checkyoursudo » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:43 AM UTC

sennight wrote: post #10

anticensor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if they are not allowed to say no to lawyers?

Legal is a cost center, which means that they don't get to say no. Here is how that conversation goes: Lawyer: You must include my unenforceable EULA. Anyone-with-a-brain: lol, no. Your "contribution" to this project only serves to do the direct opposite of our stated intent... Actually, why are you involving yourself here - are you billing for this? Lawyer scampering noises recede into the distance

As a recovering lawyer, all I will say is that, it is extremely rare for any lawyer to have the power to do anything directly themselves of their own initiative, which is even more true in business than in other areas of law (lawyers can railroad their immigration, criminal defense, family law, etc clients a bit more because these clients have even less clue what is the right thing to do).

More likely in your scenario is:

Lawyer: You must include this EULA that this person/board/committee demands, and will fire both of us if you don't, because they asked me how to cover their asses in case of XYZ.

Anyone-with-a-brain: okay.

Lawyers themselves are certainly powerful, but they only really derive power from people with real power; states, boards of directors, judges, etc.

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#36

Post by pca006132 » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:44 AM UTC

throw0101c wrote: post #31

johannes1234321 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fun is: The fees for obtaining the standard doesn't really go to the ones who create the standard. Standard is created by volunteers typically sponsored by their employer to go to standards meetings, who also pay (depending on national body) for being members.

> The fun is: The fees for obtaining the standard doesn't really go to the ones who create the standard. The standard organization itself has and needs some infrastructure to exist, and that has to be paid for. While the folks getting together creating the standards are (often) sponsored by their employer, the employer thinks this is a net benefit because they get a say in setting it, after which they can turn around…

What services do standard organizations provide? Apart from scheduling meetings and hiding the standards behind a paywall?

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#37

Post by scrollaway » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:52 AM UTC

checkyoursudo wrote: post #35

sennight wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Legal is a cost center, which means that they don't get to say no. Here is how that conversation goes: Lawyer: You must include my unenforceable EULA. Anyone-with-a-brain: lol, no. Your "contribution" to this project only serves to do the direct opposite of our stated intent... Actually, why are you involving yourself here - are you billing for this? Lawyer scampering noises recede into the distance

As a recovering lawyer, all I will say is that, it is extremely rare for any lawyer to have the power to do anything directly themselves of their own initiative, which is even more true in business than in other areas of law (lawyers can railroad their immigration, criminal defense, family law, etc clients a bit more because these clients have even less clue what is the right thing to do). More likely in your scenari…

In a room sit three great men. A CEO, a lawyer, and an investor paying for both.

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#38

Post by justeleblanc » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:55 AM UTC

pca006132 wrote: post #36

throw0101c wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The fun is: The fees for obtaining the standard doesn't really go to the ones who create the standard. The standard organization itself has and needs some infrastructure to exist, and that has to be paid for. While the folks getting together creating the standards are (often) sponsored by their employer, the employer thinks this is a net benefit because they get a say in setting it, after which they can turn around…

What services do standard organizations provide? Apart from scheduling meetings and hiding the standards behind a paywall?

I guess you can take a look there: https://www.iso.org/what-we-do.html

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#39

Post by justeleblanc » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 11:56 AM UTC

kajaktum wrote: post #20

legulere wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that work on standards costs a lot of money. Somehow we need to pay for that. The solution could be the state.

Like what? And if they do, is it really sustainable? Are these standard organisations really funded by the papers they sell?

ISO is funded by sales and membership fees from member states. It's been around for 75 years. If they're not sustainable, I don't know what organizations are.

Re: No-cost access to the latest PDF standard: ISO 32000-2 (PDF 2.0)

#40

Post by makkesk8 » Thu, Apr 06, 2023, 12:03 PM UTC

The way pdf has become a standard in everyday life is truly disgusting.

One is expected nowadays to have a pdf reader installed on your device, this is a problem in it self because most of the software short of just reading the pdf, that are "free" does not include most of the features one would come to expect to utilize the standard. Now I don't have to sign pdf's daily but when you start a new job for instance and have to sign a pdf it becomes troublesome.

As a developer the ecosystem is pretty terrible too, in order to utilize said functions such as signing you'd need to fork out a huge chunk for a subscription to some library. Don't get me wrong, paying for software I'm all for but forcing your users to pay for some third-party software to interact with your documents is not fine.

To me, this is simply disgusting that you'd have to buy into this "standard" in every aspect, both as a user and as a developer.

We've come a long way over the years of having more options to both users and developers but honestly, it's simply not enough. And pdf as a format being very complex it's more than understandable that it would be a challenge to make it more available.