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Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

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Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#141

Post by onion2k »

Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote: post #35
dangwhy wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But managers don't care (and many co-workers also). i bet 99% of time people are interrupting themselves. Like i just did to browse HN.

A momentary distraction like a quick HN check is not the same as the context switching of, for example, going to a budget meeting while in the middle of trying to figure out some technical detail. Very different things.

The difference is scheduling and autonomy. If you had "HN Time" blocked out in your calendar it'd be just as distracting as a budgeting meeting. HN only is different because you can choose when to be distracted by it, and you're happy to say no to it.

If you could control when the budget meeting happens, or if you could decline it, you'd have far fewer issues with it.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#142

Post by theshrike79 »

metalrain wrote: post #138
theshrike79 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You really should quit your day job and start selling courses on focus if you really can drop down to a flow state in under 5 minutes and on purpose.

I think you don't need to have deep flow state to make progress at work. For me I think flow state is more about how interested I am about the task than how much time I have. And frankly many tasks at work aren't that interesting so even if I have half of day uninterrupted time, I don't get into flow state.

Entering a flow state is a combination of multiple things IMO.

The amount of challenge needs to be challenging enough for your skill level, not too easy (boring) or not too hard (can't flow because you get stuck).

And (at least for me) I need to have the knowledge that I can focus on the task and not be interrupted. If I have a meeting in 30 minutes, there's exactly zero chance I'll enter a flow state because I'm expecting the meeting to start. And if I accidentally enter flow, I either work past the meeting or my flow is interrupted by a calendar alarm.

Interruptions during flow state are really damaging (for me) because I'm juggling a huge amount of context and data in my head that's not yet exported to any external medium. If I get interrupted a large-ish segment of that data will disappear and I need to spend time gathering it after the interruption has passed.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#143

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

georgemcbay wrote: post #122
ashton314 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And sure, why don't you put me next to the salespeople making calls all day. I’ve worked next to people with zero volume control and who like to take calls on speakerphone. I decided there and then that cubicles has material benefits over open offices.

I'm old enough that I remember a time when developers had offices... sometimes private, sometimes 2 to a large office, but usually shared with other developers who generally also understood the benefit of not being interrupted so it worked out fine. Young me's head would explode if I got a glimpse into a future where cubicles are now looked at as the good old days. And the progression keeps going with a lot of compan…

The cause of all this is the grafted on management caste, that does not code. For them the whole endavour suspicously looks like not doing a thing, for to do a thing, there needs to be communication, information flowing up and down the hierarchy. Not some dude sitting there like a zen monk, reading, ocassionally typing. Slackers! Best load there calendars, to get them going..

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#144

Post by michalc »

sethammons wrote: post #44
postalrat wrote: post #42

Context switching is a skill you can and will improve as you get interrupted throughout your career.

that is one of the arguments in favor of the pomodoro productivity technique. For the unaware, pomodoro says to set a timer and do 25min of non-distracted work. Come up for air (mandatory stop) for 5 minutes. Rinse and repeat a few times. Some studies claim it takes 20min to get into the zone, but pomodoro insists on breaking that flow about 5 minutes later. The end result is training yourself to pick back up where y…

I do something very similar - I didn’t realise this had a name. I plan that I will essentially have to context change in a short amount of time, so try to achieve some tiny thing before that.

It really works - at least for me.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#145

Post by steve1977 »

mangamadaiyan wrote: post #84
lumost wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the unfortunate privilege to work at a firm where the senior engineering leaders believe context switching is a requirement. They judge people on whether they can do it. I find that this leads everyone to constantly do multiple concurrent tasks. After a long day I often have a headache from having to concentrate on both my coding task, an operations task, a meeting, and a new request at the same time. Ultimate…

Heh. The same at my workplace, except that build times suck, tests take a long time to run (and are not dependable), and you're expected to be on an electronic leash -- namely, one of the worst possible instant messengers.

You can say MS Teams here, it’s ok…

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#146

Post by Cthulhu_ »

asdff wrote: post #9

If I know I am going to have my day broken into sub 1hr chunks thanks to meetings and such, I pretty much write off the day entirely. It takes time to get into the flow state, some studies cite over 20 minutes, and once you are in it you want to stay in it for like four hours. No emails to follow up with, no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the perip…

> I pretty much write off the day entirely.

I think this is the mindset that a lot of people have, but always keep in mind, the meetings is part of your job, and writing code is also only one aspect of your job.

What I'm trying to say is that don't let the meetings frustrate you, instead just accept them and the distractions. Few people get to do what they really want to do all the time, and it does often seem that software developers show some prima donna behaviour in that they just want to stay in their flow and the other aspects of their job should be dismissed.

I mean I get it, writing code / flow state is enjoyable and makes you feel productive, but you get paid for the full package.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#147

Post by Cthulhu_ »

wpietri wrote: post #97
asdff wrote: post #9

If I know I am going to have my day broken into sub 1hr chunks thanks to meetings and such, I pretty much write off the day entirely. It takes time to get into the flow state, some studies cite over 20 minutes, and once you are in it you want to stay in it for like four hours. No emails to follow up with, no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the perip…

> no slack, no zooms, no one tapping your shoulder, no conversations about the weekend distracting you on the periphery My teen jobs were in stores, restaurants, and manufacturing. In those contexts, everybody understands that when you're working, you're actually working. Even managers understand that even small discussions need to be fit neatly into the flow of the work, and actual meetings require careful planning…

I think the distractbility and the opportunity to just sit in meetings and chats all day is an example of the priviledge that we as white collar workers enjoy. Our productivity isn't measured in output, in number of pallets cleared, in end of day take, it often feels like it's measured in just time spent under a contract.

It feels like I can get away with only a few hours of what to me feels like productive work a week. Actually, I had a really good day last week, but then it takes days for the feature to pass review, rework for said review (often trivial remarks), and to end up in the main branch ready for deployment.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#148

Post by steve1977 »

mrighele wrote: post #48
ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #20

Sadly, the cost of context switching is well-known, and has been proven, over and over again, for decades. But managers don't care (and many co-workers also). A quick shufti at most modern open-plan offices, shows the contempt that managers have for developer context. They know better, and have made the conscious decision to go open, anyway. I remember visiting the Facebook/Instagram building, in NYC, and was aghast…

> But managers don't care (and many co-workers also). For the majority, the cost is not that well known and in general they are not the ones paying for it, you are. In particular for your colleagues it may be beneficial to disturb you because when they disturb you, you may lose concentration but the may in fact avoid losing it by quickly get an answer to their pending problem. This is one aspect where LLMs may be ver…

> In particular for your colleagues it may be beneficial to disturb you because when they disturb you, you may lose concentration but the may in fact avoid losing it by quickly get an answer to their pending problem.

This is true, but the people getting asked are usually the ones doing (much) more delicate work, so it’s their concentration that should be protected.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#149

Post by euroderf »

Arrath wrote: post #64
time0ut wrote: post #60

My company likes to schedule at least 20 hours of meetings spread across the week in such a way that you rarely get more than 30 minutes in between two. Then management wonders why it takes so long to get anything done. Guess its a mystery. Let’s schedule a recurring meeting to discuss it…

A meeting to discuss that we're behind schedule. A meeting to discuss why we're behind schedule. A meeting to put together a task group to put together a recovery schedule. A task group meeting to put together the recovery schedule. A management meeting to review the recovery schedule. n bounces between management and the TG to revise the recovery schedule. A meeting with staff to discuss the recovery schedule A meet…

It's schedules all the way down. Fractal recursion. Oh and I'm gonna need your TPS report ASAP.

Re: Programmer interrupted: The cost of interruption and context switching (2022)

#150

Post by Cthulhu_ »

marcosdumay wrote: post #110
saghm wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand the point they're making, but I'm not sure you understand mine though. If someone talking about weight loss suggested that people should just never eat breakfast to reduce the amount of eating they do in a given day, it would be relevant to offer a critique this may end up being counterproductive overall to the goal due to it just pushing the issue into another part of the day; this is basically the same…

Hum... Isn't that intermittent fasting?

So many people have done intermittent fasting without realizing they could brag about their hipster diet, lol.
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