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Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

viemu.com

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Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#211

Post by Derbasti »

mattmanser wrote: post #118
itmag wrote: post #104

What I want to know: how good is the best autocompletion available? Does it stack up to Visual Studio's Intellisense? (For statically typed languages, that is; Intellisense doesn't work very well for eg Javascript).

To be completely honest if you were impressed you shouldn't have been. Learn your IDE! Apart from the douchey tone of the article, the thing he misses is that most editors can do this stuff, you've just got to make a bit of an effort to find out how. Emacs/Vim force you to learn this stuff as they suck without it. That's one of the big difference between Vim/Emacs and others, people don't realise they can do so much…

I used to think that, too. Then I actually tried Vim. I was wrong. Vim is significantly faster for text editing.

Go check out some screencasts from experienced Vimmers or Emacsers.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#212

Post by alwillis »

sofal wrote: post #193
kahawe wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is: these comparisons always try to make vi seem like the always better choice INSTEAD of an IDE and this is were I completely disagree. And you make it look just like that with adjusting the comparison in favor of vi, the screwdriver. This is just wrong. Let's see, you could also say: Screwdriver: specific to only one type of screw, limited to only a couple of similar sizes and all you can do is drive scre…

If I thought an IDE was better for large Java projects than vim, then I'd use an IDE instead of vim for large Java projects. You'll find that many vim users do not use an IDE because they've found it to be more productive for them to use vim + command line instead. In those cases, there is clearly a choice being made about IDE versus vim. If you want to be pedantic about the fact that vim is just a text editor, then…

Great article on this very point: "Build an IDE with tmux and vim"--http://alexyoung.org/2011/12/19/build-an-ide-with-tmux-and-v.... The money quote: The difference between this approach and a traditional IDE is this interface adapts around my current task, and is only limited by the thousands of commands and scripting languages that I have installed.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#213

Post by donaq »

kstenerud wrote: post #108
jerf wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Why do all articles about how wonderful vi is end with condescension?" Because one way to get someone over the initial learning hump is to "encourage" them by challenging their manhood. Same principle behind a boot camp sergeant telling every single incoming group that they are the worst bunch of nambypamby girliemen he's ever seen and he's been in this army for 25 years and that he will consider it a personal failu…

My response to this approach has always been the middle finger. If someone can't afford me even the minimal level of respect, I'll leave. My worth is not dependent upon what other people think.

If your worth is independent of what he thinks or says, why not listen to him and make decisions based on the merits of his argument instead of letting the emotional content throw you off? I'm not saying I'm capable of doing that, just that it's what I'm striving for. :)

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#214

Post by kahawe »

sofal wrote: post #193
kahawe wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is: these comparisons always try to make vi seem like the always better choice INSTEAD of an IDE and this is were I completely disagree. And you make it look just like that with adjusting the comparison in favor of vi, the screwdriver. This is just wrong. Let's see, you could also say: Screwdriver: specific to only one type of screw, limited to only a couple of similar sizes and all you can do is drive scre…

If I thought an IDE was better for large Java projects than vim, then I'd use an IDE instead of vim for large Java projects. You'll find that many vim users do not use an IDE because they've found it to be more productive for them to use vim + command line instead. In those cases, there is clearly a choice being made about IDE versus vim. If you want to be pedantic about the fact that vim is just a text editor, then…

Except then I still don't have any interface builders, out-of-the-box code completion and on the fly compiling/checking for small mistakes, easy navigation through class hierarchies ("click on Classname, function etc..) plus showing me documentation alongside, refactoring tasks, all sorts of useful and some useless wizards etc. and we haven't even talked about more specific things like developing for iOS. So IDE is still ahead in terms of what it has to offer me that not even vi+console or vim+console can. My point stands.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#215

Post by kahawe »

metaobject wrote: post #76
drblast wrote: post #19

Don't ever start using vi. After you do, any text editor that you are forced to use that doesn't have vi key bindings will give you fits and make you cry. Learning vi is your standard process of enlightenment and elation followed by a lifetime of disappointment. Think about how you'd feel if you ate the best meal of your life at age 13, and the restaurant where you ate it went out of business the next day. You'll be…

Don't ever start using emacs. After you do, any text editor that you are forced to use that doesn't have emacs key bindings will give you fits and make you cry. Learning emacs is your standard process of enlightenment and elation followed by a lifetime of disappointment. Think about how you'd feel if you ate the best meal of your life at age 13, and the restaurant where you ate it went out of business the next day. Y…

"Ed is the standard text editor."

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#216

Post by recursive »

eru wrote: post #180
recursive wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People that I know of that have personal experience do say it impairs it though.

I've certainly gone out of training on qwerty (or rather qwertz), but I was never actively impaired. Though in the last few months I went down the even more extreme route of getting a special keyboard not only an alternative layout. The Kinesis Advantage. By the way, learning vi is probably the most standard compatible thing to do. Vi is a standard Unix tool, has been around for decades and will be around for decades…

> By the way, learning vi is probably the most standard compatible thing to do. Vi is a standard Unix tool, has been around for decades and will be around for decades more.

This feels a little bit like the scene in Superbad, where McLovin proposes to be named Muhammed to blend in, since it's the most common name in the world. It may be the most common OS in the world, but it's none too common 'round these parts. Off the top of my head, I can't even name two computers that have vi installed. The first is my work computer on which I installed gvim for another attempt after reading this very article.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#217

Post by Karunamon »

I used to be in the "eww, vi" camp before taking a sysadmin job that basically forced me to use it. I used to remove vi at my first opportunity and link /bin/vi to nano instead.

Well, almost a year later, and I can't use nano without being irritated. All of the jumping around the keyboard for functions seems really inefficient all of a sudden.

Vim - :wq! :D

Nano - C-o C-x >:(

Probably the reason that emacs feels so wrong right now, though I'm doing my damnedest to become at least basically proficient with it, if nothing else for all of the ancillary features (like a really nice IRC client or the best text-mode organizer I've ever seen).

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#218

Post by sofal »

kahawe wrote: post #214
sofal wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I thought an IDE was better for large Java projects than vim, then I'd use an IDE instead of vim for large Java projects. You'll find that many vim users do not use an IDE because they've found it to be more productive for them to use vim + command line instead. In those cases, there is clearly a choice being made about IDE versus vim. If you want to be pedantic about the fact that vim is just a text editor, then…

Except then I still don't have any interface builders, out-of-the-box code completion and on the fly compiling/checking for small mistakes, easy navigation through class hierarchies ("click on Classname, function etc..) plus showing me documentation alongside, refactoring tasks, all sorts of useful and some useless wizards etc. and we haven't even talked about more specific things like developing for iOS. So IDE is s…

I fully realize the advantages that an IDE has over vim:

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938995

If your point is that this handful of advantages is a slam dunk, and that it makes IDEs and vim+console incomparable such that whoever does so is making a categorical error, then your point has no legs to stand on.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#219

Post by kstenerud »

donaq wrote: post #213
kstenerud wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My response to this approach has always been the middle finger. If someone can't afford me even the minimal level of respect, I'll leave. My worth is not dependent upon what other people think.

If your worth is independent of what he thinks or says, why not listen to him and make decisions based on the merits of his argument instead of letting the emotional content throw you off? I'm not saying I'm capable of doing that, just that it's what I'm striving for. :)

I'd still listen to what they have to say, but I'd consider it to be untrustworthy information, as their insult against those who do things differently would tell me that they have a strong enough emotional investment in their decision that they're unable to rationally consider the alternatives.

Either that or they're being manipulative, which is also a big red flag.

Re: Why, oh why, do those nutheads use vi?

#220

Post by kahawe »

sofal wrote: post #218
kahawe wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except then I still don't have any interface builders, out-of-the-box code completion and on the fly compiling/checking for small mistakes, easy navigation through class hierarchies ("click on Classname, function etc..) plus showing me documentation alongside, refactoring tasks, all sorts of useful and some useless wizards etc. and we haven't even talked about more specific things like developing for iOS. So IDE is s…

I fully realize the advantages that an IDE has over vim: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2938995 If your point is that this handful of advantages is a slam dunk, and that it makes IDEs and vim+console incomparable such that whoever does so is making a categorical error, then your point has no legs to stand on.

You belittle clear advantages simply because they do not fit your taste or style while the usefulness and spreading use of IDEs is unquestionable, so this is too much of a personal preferences discussion than anything else, just like all vi vs emacs flames have always been and I find it disappointing that in 2012 this STILL keeps coming up... I thought I had FINALLY left those zealots behind me in the 90s. And I really do not like your tone.

I am more than sufficiently "fluent" in pretty much all common IDEs and in vi(m)+console so that I don't really care which one I am using or have to use neither do I care on which OS... most of the time I end up in a good IDE because for a lot of the tasks I want to do and get paid to do, there are no real alternatives in vim+console, they might be specific though.

The article argued vim's superiority in editing so comparing that to an IDE really are two completely different things. Comparing vim+console to an IDE is always going to be all about personal preferences and which extensions do you use in the one or the other, which tools/options/tasks are available and which aren't - but ultimately they cater to two usually very different crowds: the console-lovers and the oh-shiny-clicky crowd and you will find it very difficult to even remotely describe an advantage of the one to a member of the other crowd... and that's where the comparison doesn't add up and feels to me like apples-oranges.

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