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Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

economist.com

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Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#311

Post by WeylandYutani »

mfer wrote: post #150
scottLobster wrote: post #129

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

> Russians have never had any real individual rights. To take a step back and think about things (not that I'm suggesting what I think)... in most places for most of history it's been about the group. The collective. Being heavily individualized is a modern and western thing. So, why is one way right and another way wrong? Note, I do not agree with what's going on with Russia. I'm simply bringing up the higher level…

You'd have a point if the Russian elites were actually on the front lines and not partying in Dubai and India.

Putin's regime is not communism.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#312

Post by orbital-decay »

jevgeni wrote: post #308
orbital-decay wrote: post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm directly addressing the point that people were "silent". No they weren't silent, and framing it as being pissed for being drafted is bizarre to anyone who lived during that time. They were angry at Yeltsin for bringing the war in the first place, to use military force in both 1993 coup and Chechnya. Why the massively unpopular person (with 6%-something support before the campaign) remained in power instead of som…

All irrelevant for the end-result: hundreds of thousands people dead, cities destroyed, warcrimes committed. 3 million "siloviki" in a country of 140 million - with these proportions, it's the 137 mil who are guilty.

Honestly, what I hear is moving the goalposts until "it's irrelevant whether you did anything, if you lost it's your damn fault lmao". Same with Belarus 2020. Well, if I'm hearing it right, then good luck with that brush. It might be understandable, but that doesn't make it excusable.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#313

Post by boeingUH60 »

jacquesm wrote: post #247
varjag wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a popular opinion certainly that I've heard many times. Russian official support was essential in convincing local LE to commit to the government and squash the protests. But when you look at the ratio of Russian forces to Belarusian within the country at the moment it's hardly an occupation. The reason I'm uncomfortable with this narrative though is it denies Lukashenka's part in this. All Belarusians are aware…

What really got me is that he seems to genuinely believe that the protests are driven from the West rather than that the local populace is fed up with him and wants him gone. It is as if he can't believe the evidence right in front of him. Belarus could have been economically roughly where Poland or Lithuania are today. Such a pity.

> It is as if he can't believe the evidence right in front of him.

This is a strict requirement to become a dictator/authoritarian. It's a job only for the delusional and shameless.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#314

Post by medo-bear »

5e92cb50239222b wrote: post #244
foverzar wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> being conscripted and thrown into the meat grinder I will be labeled as a brainwashed ruskie and downvoted into oblivion if I point out that it isn't really true, right?

How come? Several of my friends' coworkers were conscripted and sent to the front (the friends themselves managed to leave the country the next day). I don't even need to believe what the newspapers are saying — it's straight from the horse's mouth. The conscription has not reached Ukraine's levels yet, but only because 2024 is not far away, and Putin expects to get his 75% without too much trouble. After that, who k…

i know plenty of ukranians that left ukraine in order to dodge conscription. although they hope russia looses they say they would not give their life for benefit of the corrupt elite. to me that is a smart decision. same for russians that leave russia in order to escape conscription. this war sucks as do all sides supporting it

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#315

Post by medo-bear »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #212
medo-bear wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sorry to break it to you but black men and women are born free. its just that americans put them in chains. im sure that today they are grateful for being treated as 2nd class citizens

> today they are grateful for being treated as 2nd class citizens That isn’t what you said. You pushed back on the notion that people fought and continue to fight for others’ rights in America in a way they don’t in modern Russia (or China). That isn’t true, and it isn’t true that America Blacks or women are worse off today than they were two hundred years ago, as OP argued when you pushed back. Perfect is the enemy…

i just love reminding americans that the high pedistal they immagine they sit on when they lecture everyone is actually just a kitsch pigsty

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#316

Post by scottLobster »

medo-bear wrote: post #315
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> today they are grateful for being treated as 2nd class citizens That isn’t what you said. You pushed back on the notion that people fought and continue to fight for others’ rights in America in a way they don’t in modern Russia (or China). That isn’t true, and it isn’t true that America Blacks or women are worse off today than they were two hundred years ago, as OP argued when you pushed back. Perfect is the enemy…

i just love reminding americans that the high pedistal they immagine they sit on when they lecture everyone is actually just a kitsch pigsty

So long as you acknowledge that our current pigsty is much cleaner than Russia's. The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak. And it's not the first time the Russians have committed genocide against Ukrainians. I guess when your nation doesn't change that much in 100 years it's hard to understand that other nations do, so calling up crimes from generations ago makes sense. I bet you berate the modern Mongolians for the crimes of Genghis Khan, and modern Italians for the many massacres committed by the Romans.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#317

Post by fauxpause_ »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #290
fauxpause_ wrote: post #24

Wagner leader Prigozhin made a statement against this one as part of his internal politics war. So in case people are questioning whether this is just western propaganda, no, it appears to be the same story running around domestically, with many ultra nationalists supporting it.

source me plz

https://t.me/concordgroup_official/658

Covered by ISW: https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/russian-offens...

> Wagner Group financier Yevgeny Prigozhin seized on the recent story of the sentencing of a Tula Oblast father for his 12-year-old daughter’s antiwar drawing to promote the Wagner Group’s reputation and ameliorate his own personal image. Prigozhin’s press service posted a letter on March 28 signed by Prigozhin, Wagner commander Dmitry Utkin, and Wagner-affiliated director of the “Liga” veteran's organization Andrey Troshev addressed to Tula Oblast prosecutor Alexander Gritsaenko stating that the signatories consider Gritsaenko’s issuance of a two-year prison sentence to Aleksey Moskalev unfair.[7] Moskalev was charged with “discrediting the armed forces” after his 12-year-old daughter Masha drew an antiwar picture with a Ukrainian flag in her school art class in April 2022.[8] Masha was taken into state custody and now lives in a juvenile shelter, and Moskalev fled house arrest the night before his sentencing and was sentenced to two years in prison in absentia.[9] Prigozhin’s letter suggests that Tula Oblast check the legality of Gritsaenko’s sentencing and recommends that Wagner-affiliated lawyers participate in the case on Moskalev’s side, noting that it is tragic that both Masha and children of dead Wagner fighters end up in orphanages.[10] Prigozhin’s response to Moskalev’s sentencing is particularly ironic considering that Prigozhin was initially one of the biggest and loudest supporters of the law on punishing those who ”discredit” Russian forces.[11] It is therefore likely that Prigozhin seized on the discourse surrounding Moskalev to further his own reputation and advocate for the Wagner Group, especially by choosing to highlight the plight of orphans of Wagner fighters who die in Ukraine.[12] Prigozhin may seek to maintain his own domestic relevance by continuing to closely involve himself in such developing stories, especially by affiliating his newest campaign for relevance with Utkin and Troshev—two well-established and notorious Wagner-affiliated personalities. The letter attempts to portray Wagner's leadership as a united front against elements of the Russian bureaucracy.[13]

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#318

Post by medo-bear »

scottLobster wrote: post #316
medo-bear wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i just love reminding americans that the high pedistal they immagine they sit on when they lecture everyone is actually just a kitsch pigsty

So long as you acknowledge that our current pigsty is much cleaner than Russia's. The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak. And it's not the first time the Russians have committed genocide against Ukrainians. I guess when your nation doesn't change that much in 100 years it's hard to understand that other nat…

>The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak

russia's war in ukraine: 25,000+ civilians killed

number of civilian victims in Vietnam killed by US armed forces: 100,000+

number of civilian victims killed due to US dropping two atomic bombs on Japan: 200,000+

number of civilian deaths due to war in iraq: 200,000+

need i point out more?

as i said, kitsch pigsty. understand the evils committed by your own government before you lecture others. after all you have more freedom than russian people, hence more personal responsibility too. if people do this across the world, world would be a much happier place

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/My...

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#319

Post by dragonwriter »

medo-bear wrote: post #318
scottLobster wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as you acknowledge that our current pigsty is much cleaner than Russia's. The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak. And it's not the first time the Russians have committed genocide against Ukrainians. I guess when your nation doesn't change that much in 100 years it's hard to understand that other nat…

>The best you can point to is genocides and atrocities we committed 170 years ago, whereas Russia is attempting to commit similar genocides as we speak russia's war in ukraine: 25,000+ civilians killed number of civilian victims in Vietnam killed by US armed forces: 100,000+ number of civilian victims killed due to US dropping two atomic bombs on Japan: 200,000+ number of civilian deaths due to war in iraq: 200,000+…

> russia's war in ukraine: 25,000+ civilians killed

> number of civilian victims in Vietnam killed by US armed forces: 100,000+

You do know the US involvement in Vietnam lasted 20 years, and Russia is barely past the 1 year mark in Ukraine, right?

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#320

Post by esarbe »

lolinder wrote: post #224
esarbe wrote: post #16

Russia is slipping into totalitarianism more and more very day. But this did not happen over night; Putin and his cronies have been working towards this goal for more than 15 years now and the attack on Ukraine simply gave them all the excuses they needed to clamp down on the last dissenters. So painful

Russia never really got out of totalitarianism. They've had two brief windows where they looked like they might (post-revolution and post-collapse), but those were really just windows of pseudo-anarchy while the next totalitarian regime consolidated power.

I guess there's some truth to that. What's coming off now was just a pretense.
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