Live data from Hacker News

Saying Goodbye to GitHub

ersei.net

431–440 of 450 posts

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but with a way more elaborate model? Simple: I know that humans have intentionality and agency. They want things, they have goals both immediate and long term. Their replies are based not just on the context of their experiences and the conversation but their emotional and physical state, and the applicability of their reply to their goals. And they are capable of coming up with reasoning about topics for which the…

>Simple: I know that humans have intentionality and agency. They want things, they have goals both immediate and long term. Their replies are based not just on the context of their experiences and the conversation but their emotional and physical state, and the applicability of their reply to their goals. This all seems orthogonal to reasoning, but also who is to say that somewhere in those billions of parameters the…

> but also who is to say that somewhere in those billions of parameters there isn't something like a model of goals and emotional state?

No one, but as is well established, absence of proof of nonexistence isn't an argument for existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#432
post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Search tools are a thing. Grep, Google, Github, etc. But yes, exactly, you never know if a snippet came from another project or not, so let's not assume it did without some convincing evidence.

Why assume it didn't?

I’ve done tests and it passed with flying colors so it’s not an assumption. So the premise of your question is flawed.

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The relevant keyword you want is "zero-shot learning". (EDIT: Correction; "in-context learning". Sorry for that.) LLMs can pick up patterns from the context window purely at evaluation time using dynamic reinforcement learning. (This is one of those capabilities models seem to just pick up naturally at sufficient scale.) Those patterns are ephemeral and not persisted to memory, which I agree makes LLMs less general t…

> In the hypothetical, the token in your brain that represents "Mike" Mike isn't represented by a token. "Mike" is a word I interpret into an abstract meaning in an ad-hoc created, and later updated or discarded model of a situation in which exist only the elevator, some abstract structure around it, and the laws of physics as I know them from knowledge and experience. > built from photons hitting your retina, which…

> an ad-hoc created, and later updated or discarded model of a situation in which exist only the elevator, some abstract structure around it, and the laws of physics as I know them from knowledge and experience.

LLMs can do all of this. In fact, multimodality specifically can be shown to improve their physical intuition.

> The difference is not in how sensory input is gathered. The difference is in what that input represents. For the LLM the token represents...the token. That's it. There is nothing else. The token exists for its own sake, and has no information other than itself. It isn't something from which an abstract concept is built, it IS the concept.

The token has structure. The photons have structure. We conjecture that the photons represent real objects. The LLM conjectures (via reinforcement learning) that the tokens represent real objects. It's the exact same concept.

> As a consequence, an language model doesn't understand whether statements are false or nonsensical.

Neither do humans, we just error out at higher complexities. No human has access to the platonic truth of statements.

> So in a language models world a wrong statement can still somehow be "less wrong" than another wrong statement.

Of course, but so with humans? I have no idea what you're trying to say here. As with humans, in a LLM token improbability can derive from lots of different reasons, including world model violation, in-context rule violation, prior improbability and grammatical nonsense. In fact, their probability calibration is famously perfect, until RLHF ruins it. :)

> Bear in mind when I say all this, I don't mean to say (and I think I made that clear elsewhere in the thread) that this mimickry of reasoning isn't useful.

I fundamentally do not believe there is such a thing as "mimickry of reason". There is only reason, done more or less well. To me, it's like saying that a pocket calculator merely "mimicks math" or, as the quote goes, whether a submarine "mimicks swimming". Reason is a system of rules. Rules cannot be "applied fake"; they can only be computed. If the computation is correct, the medium or mechanism are irrelevant.

To quote gwern, if you'll allow me the snark:

> We should pause to note that a Clippy² still doesn’t really think or plan. It’s not really conscious. It is just an unfathomably vast pile of numbers produced by mindless optimization starting from a small seed program that could be written on a few pages. It has no qualia, no intentionality, no true self-awareness, no grounding in a rich multimodal real-world process of cognitive development yielding detailed representations and powerful causal models of reality; it cannot ‘want’ anything beyond maximizing a mechanical reward score, which does not come close to capturing the rich flexibility of human desires, or historical Eurocentric contingency of such conceptualizations, which are, at root, problematically Cartesian. When it ‘plans’, it would be more accurate to say it fake-plans; when it ‘learns’, it fake-learns; when it ‘thinks’, it is just interpolating between memorized data points in a high-dimensional space, and any interpretation of such fake-thoughts as real thoughts is highly misleading; when it takes ‘actions’, they are fake-actions optimizing a fake-learned fake-world, and are not real actions, any more than the people in a simulated rainstorm really get wet, rather than fake-wet. (The deaths, however, are real.)

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#434
post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's the spirit here not really. All this Free Software movement started by something really similar to "right to repair", a firmware bug in a printer that was proprietary software. Free Software is about being in control of software you use. The spirit was never "contribute back to GNU", the spirit was always "if you take GNU software, you can't make it non-free". Those GNU devs at the time just wanted a good an…

The four freedoms[1] of free software specifically state that: > The freedom to distribute copies of your modified versions to others (freedom 3). By doing this you can give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes. Access to the source code is a precondition for this. Emphasis in "give the whole community a chance to benefit from your changes". 1. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-…

"giving whole community a chance to benefit from your changes" is very different from "upstreaming your changes"

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Simple: I know that humans have intentionality and agency. They want things, they have goals both immediate and long term. Their replies are based not just on the context of their experiences and the conversation but their emotional and physical state, and the applicability of their reply to their goals. This all seems orthogonal to reasoning, but also who is to say that somewhere in those billions of parameters the…

> but also who is to say that somewhere in those billions of parameters there isn't something like a model of goals and emotional state? No one, but as is well established, absence of proof of nonexistence isn't an argument for existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Correct, but the problem is how you prove that for humans is by using the output and inferring that. You can apply the same criteria to ML models. If you don't, you need some other criteria to rule out that assumption for ML models.

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In the hypothetical, the token in your brain that represents "Mike" Mike isn't represented by a token. "Mike" is a word I interpret into an abstract meaning in an ad-hoc created, and later updated or discarded model of a situation in which exist only the elevator, some abstract structure around it, and the laws of physics as I know them from knowledge and experience. > built from photons hitting your retina, which…

> an ad-hoc created, and later updated or discarded model of a situation in which exist only the elevator, some abstract structure around it, and the laws of physics as I know them from knowledge and experience. LLMs can do all of this. In fact, multimodality specifically can be shown to improve their physical intuition. > The difference is not in how sensory input is gathered. The difference is in what that input re…

> I fundamentally do not believe there is such a thing as "mimickry of reason". There is only reason, done more or less well.

    if transaction.amount > MAX_TRANSACTION_VOLUME:
        transaction.reject()
    else:
        transaction.allow()
Is this code reasoning? It does, after all, take input and make a decision that is dependent on some context, the transactions amount. It even has a model of the world, albeit a very primitive one.

No, of course it isn't. But it mimicks the ability to do the very simple reasoning about whether or not to allow a transaction, to the point where it could be useful in real applications.

So yes, there is mimicry of reasoning, and it comes in all scales and levels of competence, from simple decision making algorithms, purely mechanical contraptions such as overpressure-valves, all the way up to highly sophisticated ones that use stochastic analysis of sequence probabilities to show the astonishing skills we see in LLMs.

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#437
post #435

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but also who is to say that somewhere in those billions of parameters there isn't something like a model of goals and emotional state? No one, but as is well established, absence of proof of nonexistence isn't an argument for existence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot

Correct, but the problem is how you prove that for humans is by using the output and inferring that. You can apply the same criteria to ML models. If you don't, you need some other criteria to rule out that assumption for ML models.

For humans I can simply refer to my own internal state and look at how I arrive by conclusions.

I am of course aware that this is essentially a form of Ipse dixit, but I will do it anway in this case, because I am saying it as a human, about humans, and to other humans, and so the audience can just try it for themselves.

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> an ad-hoc created, and later updated or discarded model of a situation in which exist only the elevator, some abstract structure around it, and the laws of physics as I know them from knowledge and experience. LLMs can do all of this. In fact, multimodality specifically can be shown to improve their physical intuition. > The difference is not in how sensory input is gathered. The difference is in what that input re…

> I fundamentally do not believe there is such a thing as "mimickry of reason". There is only reason, done more or less well. if transaction.amount > MAX_TRANSACTION_VOLUME: transaction.reject() else: transaction.allow() Is this code reasoning? It does, after all, take input and make a decision that is dependent on some context, the transactions amount. It even has a model of the world, albeit a very primitive one. N…

I feel this is mostly going to come down to how we define the word. I suspect we agree that there's no point in differentiating "reasoning" from "mimicked reasoning" if the performed actions are identical in every situation.

So let's ask differently: what concrete problem do you think LLMs cannot solve?

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

oh, so those things are what people call "opinions", which they are completely allowed to have, just as you have yours. They aren't oppressing you, they don't expose you to penalties, you can't get thrown in jail.

No, not just opinions. I don't understand why you'd redefine what I'm saying, as though that invalidates the original statement. It's not exactly difficult to spot.

I’m not redefining what you’re saying. I’m pointing out that you are exaggerating the magnitude and impact of Internet opinions by characterizing them as oppressive laws.

Re: Saying Goodbye to GitHub

#440

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the state of a person's brain is outside of copyright It clearly isn’t. Which is why clean-room reverse engineering always requires at least two people. Or why a musician that accidentally recreates a chord progression they heard years ago but don't remember the source might still get sued.

No, you're missing the very distinction I'm trying to highlight. When I read and remember some text, possibly also learning from it, I'm not making a copy and I'm not creating a derivative work. The state of my brain is outside of copyright. Only at the point where I create a new representation based on what I have read I may be violating someone's copyrights. But is it the same for an AI? Is the act of reading, reme…

The state of your brain is moot wrt copyright as you cannot distribute your brain.

Copyright is to the exclusive right to make copies, it is the exclusive right of distributing them.

As a simple example reading a book aloud in your home or singing in the shower is not copyright infringement; not even if you record it.

If you sell tickets to these performances or stream them on twitch it becomes copyright infringing.

Similarly it cannot be in violation of copyright for GitHub to train copilot on any random code they can legally access. It can be in violation to sell access to the model trained in this way.

Post reply on HN