On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be • Hacker News Board

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#31

Post by m_eiman » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 8:24 AM UTC

rcarr wrote: post #3

superchroma wrote: post #2

I strongly disagree with the premise. This isn't proper poverty, this is a borderline agrarian lifestyle utilizing various allowances as well as support structures intended for the poor. The author has a personal safety net, as well as a social one supporting them, and took advantage of lax property enforcement to build a house on state land. If you have means and options like they do, you aren't dirt poor. This isn'…

Completely agree, the author is describing frugality, not the experience of being dirt poor. > Each month the very generous Swedish government gives us no less than 600 dollars in child allowance. We also have some other incomes from book sales and irregular jobs. And we do have savings, larger than we like to admit, which in good years give capital income and in less good years give a cushion to take from. All in al…

> Your entire life is a fight for survival and you have no-one to turn to. That is dirt poor.

You are correct, and it's basically impossible for a Swedish citizen to be dirt poor - we have enough safety nets to prevent it.

Still, we have our share of people living in the streets; mostly due to poorly thought through mental illness reforms and drugs. And I bet at least some illegal immigrants have it pretty rough as well.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#32

Post by jonathanstrange » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 8:38 AM UTC

This is an interesting article, though I sense a complex mixture of regret, rationalization, and hurt pride that makes me wonder whether the author shouldn't just have taken the software developer job in Stockholm.

It doesn't read like the author was making deliberate life choices. That part of it resonates well with me since I also didn't really set a clear goal for myself and instead took one university job after another, and now I'm 51 and relatively poor, too. Contrary to the author, who seems to be yet undecided, I believe that was a mistake and I'm seeking to correct it.

What I'm missing in this article and in many of the comments is the #1 reason for working: Being able to afford a decent life style. That is the main reason why most people work. They do it for money, so they don't have to worry about issues like rent & bills and can buy nice things and afford holidays. It's neither for vocation nor because it gives them status and class, they really just want the money. Being poor is bad because everything in our society revolves around money.

As German musician Rio Reiser wrote: Money doesn't make you happy, it just calms your nerves.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#33

Post by ano88888 » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 8:46 AM UTC

bhawks wrote: post #28

The author seems quite selfish and manipulative of others. He chooses to live this way because it allows him to avoid social interactions with others. Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. He clearly wants more…

Since I came from a very poorish developing country, i can't understand some Europians contempt for wealth. I still lived in the poor country but i am making much more money than the OP and I am proud of it. They have this attitude of 'oh, i don't care about money' prabably they think their government is gonna be always be able to support them and their economy will always be good. Things change. These people will likely regret when they put their family in a fragile position.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#34

Post by strken » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 8:52 AM UTC

jay_kyburz wrote: post #16

letrowekwel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wood is renewable, burning it for heating houses in countryside full of forests is perfectly sustainable. Not caring about social status is only smart, as long as your choices don't hurt others. It should be up to individual to decide what makes them happy within these limits. Instead of hippies I would be worried of consumerist sheep who think buying products/services makes them happy, and who destroy the planet in…

The problem with wood is that if we all burnt it, there would be nowhere near enough, and our cities would be full of smoke and heavily polluted. Every household would need a lot land just to support tree regrowth. You have to be planting a lot of trees every year and letting them grow for a long time too. I don't agree with simple-thoughts on hippies, but I understand why we don't all burn wood for energy.

You get 80 tons of wood from an acre of land after 20 years of growth, or 4 tons a year. A household probably uses about 2 to 4 tons a year, less if they're in a warmer climate. That's half an acre to an acre per house.

There are potential problems here: water table and soil depletion, pollution in built-up areas including acid rain, overuse of wood in crowded areas destroying habitats for animals, and probably more. Nevertheless, all these problems only apply in certain circumstances, and rural use of firewood for heating is likely not as big a problem as you think it is. Obviously in the city things are different, but neither the author nor letrowekwel were talking about cities.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#35

Post by vintermann » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:04 AM UTC

bhawks wrote: post #28

The author seems quite selfish and manipulative of others. He chooses to live this way because it allows him to avoid social interactions with others. Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. He clearly wants more…

> Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor.

This is true, but the author doesn't pretend otherwise, or hide this fact.

That you accuse him of being selfish I think says more about you than him. I went to a Waldorf school once upon a time, so I knew a lot of kids who grew up in a similar-ish way - lots of siblings, little money, low tech and with unconventional and somewhat iconoclastic parents who had rejected the middle-class lifestyle (which they, like OP, could easily have had access to through relational capital). None of those kids that I know of have done especially poorly. Most of them have turned out very different from their parents, from becoming social media celebrities to getting involved with MLM-like schemes. But I don't think any of them are bitter about their upbringing, or alienated from their "selfish" parents.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#36

Post by emptystation » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:05 AM UTC

strken wrote: post #26

superchroma wrote: post #2

I strongly disagree with the premise. This isn't proper poverty, this is a borderline agrarian lifestyle utilizing various allowances as well as support structures intended for the poor. The author has a personal safety net, as well as a social one supporting them, and took advantage of lax property enforcement to build a house on state land. If you have means and options like they do, you aren't dirt poor. This isn'…

Yes. The piece from Resident Contrarian hit hard because it was about being trapped in poverty. Choosing to live with low consumption is laudable. I grew up in a thrifty household, though nowhere near so thrifty as the author's, and using less was much better for all of us. However, spending very little money but having a safety net and the opportunity to leave is the opposite of being trapped. It's like a controlled…

Right. I got a feeling that the OP is OK with their situation because they feel rather safe in their life conditions, there's an undertone "well if I _really really_ have to, I can take that job, or call my middle class parents, or the government will step in". None of these things are default for most poor people. When you're trapped in the cycle of poverty, you have one chance to get it "right" and you don't get a "phone a friend" option.

This aspect of poverty just mangles your mental state really. Suppose, if you're lucky, you manage to live an OK, accident-free, healthy life while poor, but the anxiety about "what ifs" is going to haunt you all the way.

Folks which have been poor and managed to escape it, are not driven by consumerism (not as the main driver at least), but by a sense of security.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#37

Post by vintermann » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:11 AM UTC

ano88888 wrote: post #33

bhawks wrote: post #28

The author seems quite selfish and manipulative of others. He chooses to live this way because it allows him to avoid social interactions with others. Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. He clearly wants more…

Since I came from a very poorish developing country, i can't understand some Europians contempt for wealth. I still lived in the poor country but i am making much more money than the OP and I am proud of it. They have this attitude of 'oh, i don't care about money' prabably they think their government is gonna be always be able to support them and their economy will always be good. Things change. These people will li…

Or maybe, like you, they understand their own position quite well.

As I wrote in the reply above, I know many now adult children of similar parents. They're doing fine.

I also know some whose parents had more of an attitude like you, that this could all be gone soon and you need to resolutely pursue money and status to be safe when that happens. Usually kids of immigrants. They seem to have much more strained relationships to their parents - and not that much better outcomes on average.

Where you are, maybe your advice is sound. But odds are that OP understands their own situation better than you who aren't in it; and that in Sweden you would be barking up the wrong tree, guarding against the wrong threats.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#38

Post by yellow_lead » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:12 AM UTC

vintermann wrote: post #35

bhawks wrote: post #28

The author seems quite selfish and manipulative of others. He chooses to live this way because it allows him to avoid social interactions with others. Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. He clearly wants more…

> Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. This is true, but the author doesn't pretend otherwise, or hide this fact. That you accuse him of being selfish I think says more about you than him. I went to a Waldorf s…

Although I'm not the original commentator, I think selfish is a fair characterization. When you have kids you should want to give them the best opportunities possible. If they end up wanting to make the choices the author made, that is fine, but at least they would have the option of living differently too.

I'm not saying that it's impossible they will have those opportunities, but it's less likely than if they had access to the best schools - which the article states they don't. Maybe the author tries to make up for this in other ways, but IMO it's unlikely to afford the same opportunities. Plus, as GP mentions, there's no mention in this article of any of that.

> None of those kids that I know of have done especially poorly. Most of them have turned out very different from their parents, from becoming social media celebrities to getting involved with MLM-like schemes.

Getting involved in MLM sounds like doing poorly to me. At least it is morally questionable. Maybe they're doing well financially.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#39

Post by rwnspace » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:19 AM UTC

bhawks wrote: post #28

The author seems quite selfish and manipulative of others. He chooses to live this way because it allows him to avoid social interactions with others. Unlike true poverty he could easily utilize both his relational capital (call parents, get cash) and educational capital (had the ability to get a professional job and turned it down) these are simply not options for people who are actually poor. He clearly wants more…

I would hazard that these are closer to your projections - he does mention having more time to spend socialising with his kids. You were expecting him to allay your fears about what a lack of financial resources might do. The article isn't a celebration of things he does with his kids, but an exploration of having less material wealth, hence the focus, no?

I know several families like this, generally hippies with an educated middle-class background, but without the desire to sacrifice themselves for money and it's trappings (and benefits). Their kids are intelligent and interesting people, and as far as I can see, have been given life as an open canvas, not as a paint-by-numbers exercise, which so many others experience.

Re: On the experience of being dirt-poorish, for people who want to be

#40

Post by Saigonautica » Wed, Apr 05, 2023, 9:27 AM UTC

Choosing to be poor seems logically impossible to me.

During the time in my life when I was poor, it was characterized by a lack of choices more than anything else. I don't think poverty is a thing that can be chosen, because being poor is not having choices.

Sure, constant low-level danger was another theme -- nearly dying from preventable diseases, parts of your home falling on you, and vehicle accidents were some things that came up. Scrounging for and repairing stuff and frugality were themes too. All of this was of no importance compared to the lack of choices, which I felt viscerally every moment of every day.

(Thankfully everything is much better now!)