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Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

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Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#251

Half the posts in this thread bring back the old SlashDot adage: The plural of anecdote is not data. I am not sure what the point this article is trying to make is. I do not feel more informed for having read it. It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing. Is it good, is it bad? It doesn't matter. The end result is damaged institutional trust. How many people woul…

This post is an amalgam of barely formed thoughts followed by..."but fight a class war". It's nonsense from beginning to end.

Why is critical data "populist"? Why is undamaged institutional trust your goal? Are institutions inherently trustworthy, or is it that they aren't but should be presented as such? Why are you concerned with the literacy of the audience rather than the content of the article? In your mind, why is is every author's duty to present two arguments (which is not a research mandate, the article being a research summary presented in popular article format).

Anointing "experts" is not how science works.

Again, the article being equivalent to a research abstract and research being the basis for science.

We removed science from the unquestionable "expertise" of the Church many centuries ago. At which point we placed in the hands of research and its critique.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#252
In my observation and experience with watching the medical profession do what it does with many family members, it is an art form of personal preservation to avoid being caught in the teeth of the medical industry. Nothing in that sentiment implies undue trust in alternative medicine.

That being said, there are minor things that people can do to avoid and solve problems. Which might otherwise get over-treated should one submit to a doctor. Go to bed early, become skilled with vitamin C usage for vascular health preservation, find a way to be active every day, avoid PUFA, get your iron checked for overdose (they enrich everything with it), etc.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Institutional corruption will not be solved by losing trust in the institutions. When the institution dies because nobody trusts it you don't all of a sudden get good health care. That's a fair point. "Burn it down" is not a good solution. The system, even while corrupted, still results in vastly improved outcomes relative to what people could expect 100-150 years ago. > So if you believe that our medical instituti…

I was not being reductive. Money gets to vote on candidates before people do. Before any general election there is a primary, and to win the primary you do fundraising. People with money give politicians money with the implicit understanding that making anti-donor decisions will result in withdrawal of future money or (thanks to citizens united) unlimited contributions to their opponent. Money literally votes on poli…

I agree we live in a relatively oligarchic society - that is an inescapable outcome for democracies.

We would probably disagree as to the causes and alternatives to this oligarchic structure, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole at the moment.

What I am saying is that when you look at the problems with the medical profession, there is more at play here than the self-interest of billionaires. You talk at high levels about the impact of inequality on overall government policy, but not everything that goes wrong with an industry is a result of government policy, let alone policies favored by the wealthy. Medical research is fraught with issues of reproducibility. Government regulations artificially restrict the supply of healthcare. Technological advancement means that many people can now live sedentary lives, and it's adversely affecting health outcomes.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#254

Half the posts in this thread bring back the old SlashDot adage: The plural of anecdote is not data. I am not sure what the point this article is trying to make is. I do not feel more informed for having read it. It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing. Is it good, is it bad? It doesn't matter. The end result is damaged institutional trust. How many people woul…

> The plural of anecdote is not data.

Except it literally is.

How do you think rare vaccine side effects have been discovered and recorded? By collecting thousands of "anecdotes" from individuals reporting anomalous symptoms.

How do you think illicit drug harm is measured? They can't exactly pump people full of cocaine and ketamine in a lab to study overdose effects - you collect anecdotes (individual cases), catalog them, aggregate and adjust for sample bias.

Anecdotes are individual, cherry-picked testimonies. When you collect enough of them you get a statistically significant data point. It may be biased based on how your data was collected but the same can be said for many scientific studies that turned out to be flawed in their data collection. As long as you are aware of what the possible bias is, you have data.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was not being reductive. Money gets to vote on candidates before people do. Before any general election there is a primary, and to win the primary you do fundraising. People with money give politicians money with the implicit understanding that making anti-donor decisions will result in withdrawal of future money or (thanks to citizens united) unlimited contributions to their opponent. Money literally votes on poli…

I agree we live in a relatively oligarchic society - that is an inescapable outcome for democracies. We would probably disagree as to the causes and alternatives to this oligarchic structure, but I don't want to go down that rabbit hole at the moment. What I am saying is that when you look at the problems with the medical profession, there is more at play here than the self-interest of billionaires. You talk at high…

Snyder would say you are practicing the politics of inevitability: https://hac.bard.edu/amor-mundi/the-politics-of-inevitabilit...

  What the politics of inevitability does is that it teaches you to narrate in such 
  a way that the facts which seem to trouble the story of progress are disregarded. 
  So in the politics of inevitability, if there is huge wealth inequality as a 
  result of unbridled capitalism, we teach ourselves to say that that’s kind of a 
  necessary cost of this overall progress. We learn this dialectical way of 
  thinking by which what seems to be bad is actually good.
  And, of course, that applies to foreign affairs as well. When we look at 
  countries that are not making the quote-unquote “transition” to democracy the way  
  we expect, you know, we find excuses. We imagine that the general trend is going 
  to our direction in some deep way. And then we fail to notice, what has been the 
  case for the last 15 years or so, that the world is actually moving in a very 
  pronounced and easily observable way away from democracy.
Here is a relatively quick video of him pretty directly critiquing what you just stated: https://bigthink.com/videos/timothy-snyder-political-outrage...

  But the way that things are breaking now in the U.S. is that our politics of 
  inevitability, which we’ve held to in the last 25 years, basically this idea that 
  “since communism ended in 1989 there are no alternatives,” basically this idea 
  that “technology must lead to enlightenment,” this idea that “the market must lead 
  to democracy.” Those ideas have now come back to clobber us. Neither of them ever 
  had any foundation. Both of them are highly persuasive to a lot of people and 
  that’s lead to some consequences, which are very dangerous for the rule of law and 
  indeed for democracy. Believing that, for example, more market means more 
  democracy means that you don’t regulate things that you really need to regulate, 
  like offshore wealth or anonymous transactions or shell companies. And that 
  creates a world, a gray zone of capitalism where, for example, a Donald Trump can 
  begin close relationships with Russian oligarchs. If you believe that technology 
  automatically leads to progress, then you don’t watch very carefully as certain 
  kinds of social platforms lead people into a politics of “us and them” and destroy 
  a sense of common factuality. The story that you’re telling yourself the whole 
  time about how “the market or tech have to lead toward enlightenment and 
  democracy” dulls your mind to what’s actually happening until you reach the point   
  that we’ve reached now.
> but not everything that goes wrong with an industry is a result of government policy,

It is not positive government policy that is the problem but government failure to act because the government operates on behalf of money (oligarchy), not on behalf of us (democracy).

If not the government, where do you think a solution comes from?

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#256

Half the posts in this thread bring back the old SlashDot adage: The plural of anecdote is not data. I am not sure what the point this article is trying to make is. I do not feel more informed for having read it. It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing. Is it good, is it bad? It doesn't matter. The end result is damaged institutional trust. How many people woul…

This post is an amalgam of barely formed thoughts followed by..."but fight a class war". It's nonsense from beginning to end. Why is critical data "populist"? Why is undamaged institutional trust your goal? Are institutions inherently trustworthy, or is it that they aren't but should be presented as such? Why are you concerned with the literacy of the audience rather than the content of the article? In your mind, why…

[deleted]

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#257
post #92

Personal example: my primary care physician scheduled me for a physical, including picking the date, without even asking. It just showed up on my online chart. Okay, I hadn't had a physical for a while, so I just went with it. While stopped at an intersection on the way to his office, a woman plowed into me and 2 other cars because she wasn't paying attention, and was likely on her phone. That wreck generated $45K of…

> That wreck generated $45K of medical bills for me and a 21-month settlement process. Someone hit you with their car and you got $45k of medical bills? What sort of a backwards place do you live in?

USA, about a mile from several major hospital complexes. Not at all in the sticks.

The ER bills for the day of the accident were around $22K for X-rays and CT scans. The ambulance was $650. I had 2 broken ribs, a broken nose, and a fractured vertebrae. Bruises on every body part. A back brace was $1500. An elbow MRI was $3500. Had to have nose surgery to fix my smashed nose, for breathing, not for looks: $11K. The rest were miscellaneous doctor appts (around 25), 5 physical therapy sessions, pre-surgery blood tests and X-rays, follow-up X-rays, etc.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#258
post #92

Personal example: my primary care physician scheduled me for a physical, including picking the date, without even asking. It just showed up on my online chart. Okay, I hadn't had a physical for a while, so I just went with it. While stopped at an intersection on the way to his office, a woman plowed into me and 2 other cars because she wasn't paying attention, and was likely on her phone. That wreck generated $45K of…

What type of workouts were you doing, were they unusually strenuous? This reads as if the general population doesn't work out — if they did, your workouts wouldn't be that out of the norm.

One hour workouts 4x a week with a personal trainer. I only started working out a year ago, but these blood tests were done after I had been working out 8-9 months, not just restarting after a rest as many have mentioned.

Here are a couple of articles:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2291230/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5158103/

The tests in the articles are on people who just started weightlifting, but I did not see any testing of people used to weightlifting. From what I read, it sounds like the enzyme levels are higher because of the muscle damage caused by weightlifting. If that's the case, it doesn't make sense to me that the enzymes would become normal after weightlifting for a while, because you're still going to be damaging and repairing the muscles every week.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, wow, I had the exact same experience (about elevated AST, ALT, not the car accident). It's got nothing to do with protein shakes, it happens when you start working out after a long break. I went for my regular checkups and my AST ALT levels were through the roof (3-4 times the max value). The doctor ordered a few more tests, an ultrasound etc. I was very shocked, because my levels were perfectly normal a year bef…

Same experience here, though it was just regular intense exercise, not a return to exercise. Of course the doctor sort of chuckled and laughed when I theorized this as the cause of the elevated liver enzymes and said “no, exercise is good for you”.

Mine also was not a return to weightlifting. I had been doing it for 8-9 months when I took the first blood test with the elevated levels.
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