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Levels of banned CFCs rising

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Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#51

Post by [deleted] »

rcme wrote: post #34
nluken wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean what do you propose western nations do? Nothing? Yeah stupid measures like removing straws from restaurants make 0 difference, but pushing for more fuel efficient vehicles and cleaner sources of electricity seems like a worthwhile effort without much QoL sacrifice. Green infrastructure (i.e. reducing car dependence) also seems to improve quality of life in many places, so I would argue we should be trying to d…

I think it's pretty clear that the only two outcomes of this scenario are societal destruction via climate catastrophe or we find a way to cleanly 1000x our energy production.

[deleted]

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#52

Post by Apocryphon »

nluken wrote: post #18
anonym29 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is mentioned as having been a likely culprit in the past. I don't understand why Westerners are so keen to make major sacrifices to quality of life in the name of fighting climate change when nothing we do will make a statistically significant impact in the long run with major population centers like China, India, and Nigeria continuing to grow more wealthy with rapidly increasing demand for reliable, 24/7 ener…

I mean what do you propose western nations do? Nothing? Yeah stupid measures like removing straws from restaurants make 0 difference, but pushing for more fuel efficient vehicles and cleaner sources of electricity seems like a worthwhile effort without much QoL sacrifice. Green infrastructure (i.e. reducing car dependence) also seems to improve quality of life in many places, so I would argue we should be trying to d…

No fan of straw bans, but aren't they motivated by a different ecological issue, namely reducing plastic waste

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#53

Post by bluGill »

asperous wrote: post #44
anonym29 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is mentioned as having been a likely culprit in the past. I don't understand why Westerners are so keen to make major sacrifices to quality of life in the name of fighting climate change when nothing we do will make a statistically significant impact in the long run with major population centers like China, India, and Nigeria continuing to grow more wealthy with rapidly increasing demand for reliable, 24/7 ener…

We don't have to trust their numbers, we have satellites that can monitor the emission levels. The US pollutes at roughly twice the amount on a per person basis as China. In addition we "outsource" some of our pollution to them by them doing our manufacturing. It's tough to both raise the standard of living (reduce poverty) while also reducing pollution but China has a lot of initiatives to be more green; for example…

The trends are the US is reducing emissions. I'm not sure what China us doing (I know they build a lot of solar, but i'm not clear if they are also building coal power plants)

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#54

Post by londons_explore »

hammock wrote: post #26
ryanblakeley wrote: post #2

> The collective annual warming effect of these five chemicals on the planet is equivalent to the emissions produced by a small country like Switzerland. > When CFCs were phased out, hydrofluorocarbons (HFCs) were brought in as substitutes. But CFCs can crop up as unintended by-products during HFC manufacture. > The appearance of CFC-13 is much more baffling. “We really have no clue” where the emissions are coming fr…

>The collective annual warming effect of these five chemicals on the planet is equivalent to the emissions produced by a small country like Switzerland. Why is warming effect what matters here? During the original CFC crisis, it was the hole in the ozone layer we were more worried about.

People have become used to the thin ozone layer. In much of the world, you now can't stay outside all day without getting sunburn. There are not many reports of sunburn from 100 years ago.

I haven't managed to find any measurements or even estimates of what UV levels at ground level were before we started making CFC's - it seems we didn't think to measure it!

Feel sorry for all the animals and plants for whom suncream isn't an option...

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#55

Post by smoldesu »

anonym29 wrote: post #17
AlecSchueler wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This sort of ignores the global nature of our supply chains though. Someone can be very green in life here in the EU because all the products they buy are manufactured in China and their environmental impact is externalised and put onto the stats of another country that's trying to meet our demands. By regulating what's available on markets here we can pressure maufacturers elsewhere. What is the alternative you woul…

I understand that pointing out problems in complex systems without proposing a solution is ultimately indifferent from eloquent bitching, which I can certainly be fairly accused of. That said, what the west is currently doing to address climate change - analogous to cheering for the people trying to push a derailed 130-ton freight car back onto the rail tracks with unassisted manpower alone - is not a solution either…

> so we can stop wasting energy and thought on that and start diverting it to actual solutions.

If there were better "actual solutions", stupid moonshots wouldn't get funded in the first place. I don't think your framing of this situation is very accurate.

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#56

Post by rootusrootus »

anonym29 wrote: post #20
rootusrootus wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This isn't a fight we can win The right doesn't even believe that climate change is real, they aren't participating in any fight.

Declaring your own countrymen an enemy in a war that countries five times our size is winning is not going to convince them to join your side.

> Declaring your own countrymen an enemy

This is historically more of a right-wing phenomenon in the US. Though I concede it is becoming stronger on the left in recent years, as their frustration boils over. Seems they've finally concluded that the right wing will never be coming to the table in good faith, so might as well fight fire with fire.

We're all losing.

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#57

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Apocryphon wrote: post #52
nluken wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean what do you propose western nations do? Nothing? Yeah stupid measures like removing straws from restaurants make 0 difference, but pushing for more fuel efficient vehicles and cleaner sources of electricity seems like a worthwhile effort without much QoL sacrifice. Green infrastructure (i.e. reducing car dependence) also seems to improve quality of life in many places, so I would argue we should be trying to d…

No fan of straw bans, but aren't they motivated by a different ecological issue, namely reducing plastic waste

You're thinking of plastic bag bans.

Bags blow in the wind and wind up all sorts of places.

Straws mostly wind up in proper trash streams.

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#59

Post by jjoonathan »

anonym29 wrote: post #12
brianwawok wrote: post #3

Why can it not be countries that don't care just using CFCs still?

China is mentioned as having been a likely culprit in the past. I don't understand why Westerners are so keen to make major sacrifices to quality of life in the name of fighting climate change when nothing we do will make a statistically significant impact in the long run with major population centers like China, India, and Nigeria continuing to grow more wealthy with rapidly increasing demand for reliable, 24/7 ener…

The factories that make solar panels and wind turbines for us today will make solar panels and wind turbines for the rest of the world tomorrow, and also more factories in between now and then.

> make even a proverbial "drop in the bucket"

These drops in a bucket are exponential. What did your mother teach you about exponentials?

> the way things are done in China not changing

China is making solar panels and nuclear reactors like the future depends on it. They are part of the problem, yes, but they are definitely part of the solution too.

> climate change cult

Wanting clean air and tame climate is "cult" behavior?

Re: Levels of banned CFCs rising

#60

Post by iamerroragent »

bluGill wrote: post #40
hammock wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The collective annual warming effect of these five chemicals on the planet is equivalent to the emissions produced by a small country like Switzerland. Why is warming effect what matters here? During the original CFC crisis, it was the hole in the ozone layer we were more worried about.

Both matter, though warming wasn't considered a big deal, the media was still coming away from warning about a coming ice age (i've never figured out what was going on there, as a kid I heard it more than once, but now few admit the scare existed). The ozone hole was a big deal. Now that CFCs are banned the ozone layer is recovering. I'm guessing these emissions are not really enough to harm the ozone layer much (so…

" though warming wasn't considered a big deal, the media was still coming away from warning about a coming ice age (i've never figured out what was going on there, as a kid I heard it more than once, but now few admit the scare existed)."

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/06/that-70s-myth-did-cl...

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