Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

ft.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 177 posts

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#161

Post by defrost »

medo-bear wrote: post #159
mcv wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm looking at his actions, rather than believing the words of a liar. Just before the war, he said he was not going to invade. Then he did it anyway. His words are meaningless. His actions are what counts. And he obviously did try to take Kyiv. There were paradrops intended to take Kyiv in hours, even. There was a push by more forces to take Kyiv in days. It all failed because they encountered far more serious resis…

in 2014 in odesa ukranian nationalists burned protesting students alive. please dont pretend this war is a holywood good vs evil film

This would be the building fire:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o...

that started after both sides hurled molotov cocktails at each other?

The world is complicated, yes, but your comment reducing this to "one side burned the other side alive" is disingenuous at best.

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#162

Post by medo-bear »

mcv wrote: post #157
medo-bear wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you seem to be pretty keen to excuse anything nato does. i think nato purpousefully did a series of things to piss russia off and ukranian people are suffering as a result, being stuck between two imperialism. also are you aware that in 2008 the vast majority of ukranian population opposed joining nato. had ukraine joined then the war would have really been over in three days, i think

I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Rus…

you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes

1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise

1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory

1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries

2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members

2008. april. nato said it will take in georgia and ukraine

2008. may. us and majority of nato countries recognize the unilateral declaration of independence by kosovo, in disregard to previously signed un agreements, and in disregard to international law forbidding unilateral secessions

2008. august. georgia tries to retake control over autonomous ethnic-minority regions. russia stops this. georgia looses any chance of becoming part of nato

2010. ukraine government abandons plans to join nato

2014. people from west ukraine are driven by busses into kiev to overthrow an elected government. us publically supports the coup. elected president flees to russia. the goverent is overthrown. east ukraine opposes the overthrow and begins to rebel against the new government.

2014. crimea unilateraly seceeds from ukraine, citing the kosovo precedent. simultaneously it becomes part of russia

2014. civil war accross eastern ukraine, centering around donbas

2014. minsk agreements signed

2016-2019 nato suffers from being perceived as irrelevant.

2018. nato requests substantial funding to improve its information campaign. huge effort to rewrite the history of 'not an inch eastward' promise

2022. january. ukranian government publically states it has no intension of fulfilling minsk agreements

2022. february. russia invades ukraine

to me this timeline of events strongly suggests that ukraine and its people are a mere chess piece in US imperial ambissions

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#163

Post by medo-bear »

defrost wrote: post #161
medo-bear wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in 2014 in odesa ukranian nationalists burned protesting students alive. please dont pretend this war is a holywood good vs evil film

This would be the building fire: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/02/ukraine-dead-o... that started after both sides hurled molotov cocktails at each other? The world is complicated, yes, but your comment reducing this to "one side burned the other side alive" is disingenuous at best.

the people trapped in the building were either prevented from leaving or beaten up as they tried to leave, while ukranian nationalists chanted "burn! burn!" on the street

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#164

Post by mopsi »

medo-bear wrote: post #162
mcv wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not excusing NATO, I'm just explaining what happened. Putin fanboys love to pretend that NATO is aggressively expansionist, but it's not. Most of eastern Europe begged to join NATO, to the point that Poland practically blackmailed Clinton into letting them join (which Clinton originally wasn't a fan of). NATO extended its mutual defense to these countries. The only reason why that should piss off Russia is if Rus…

you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato sai…

> 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise

Never happened. In fact, Russia and NATO have explicitly in writing (1997 treaty) that they respect the right of third parties to seek security as they see fit. Nor did Russia ever bring it up until Putin needed a justification for invading Georgia.

Even any notion of such talks is absurd, given that you place it a year before the USSR collapsed. Collapse of the USSR and parts of it applying for NATO (and eventually becoming members) was inconceivable at the time. As participants have recollected, the context of talks at the time was German reunification and stationing NATO forces in Eastern Germany. Nobody could imagine that the USSR itself would soon cease to exist.

This directly ties to another point:

> 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members

(1) NATO didn't "expand", but those countries were hell-bent on seeking security to protect themselves from getting occupied ever again through cooperation in international organizations. That was set as a foreign policy goal in 1993.

(2) How did Putin react to that in 2004 when he met Schröder days after the Baltics became full members of NATO? He said that it's fine, never brought up any alleged promises. http://www.en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/30678

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#165

Post by medo-bear »

mopsi wrote: post #164
medo-bear wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you obvioisly drank the nato coolaid but please tell me whats wrong with my understanding. here goes 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise 1999. in disregard for international law, nato bombs russia ally yugoslavia and takes over its southern teritory 1999. nato expands into poland and several other ex warsaw countries 2004. nato expands into ex-ussr, taking baltic states as members 2008. april. nato sai…

> 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise Never happened. In fact, Russia and NATO have explicitly in writing (1997 treaty) that they respect the right of third parties to seek security as they see fit. Nor did Russia ever bring it up until Putin needed a justification for invading Georgia. Even any notion of such talks is absurd, given that you place it a year before the USSR collapsed. Collapse of the US…

cool story bro. russia bad nato good. if nato do something bad it is for good reason or it didnt happen or russia was behind it

some people just cant shake totalitarian frame of mind

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#166

Post by mopsi »

medo-bear wrote: post #165
mopsi wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1990. nato makes the not one inch eastward promise Never happened. In fact, Russia and NATO have explicitly in writing (1997 treaty) that they respect the right of third parties to seek security as they see fit. Nor did Russia ever bring it up until Putin needed a justification for invading Georgia. Even any notion of such talks is absurd, given that you place it a year before the USSR collapsed. Collapse of the US…

cool story bro. russia bad nato good. if nato do something bad it is for good reason or it didnt happen or russia was behind it some people just cant shake totalitarian frame of mind

Yup, pretty hard to come up with a meaningful reply when Daddy Putin said at the time that it was fine. Even hardcore Russian nationalists have grown tired of Putin's constant whining how the whole world has now wronged him: https://youtu.be/DRE8f5JzDAE

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#167

Post by medo-bear »

mopsi wrote: post #166
medo-bear wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool story bro. russia bad nato good. if nato do something bad it is for good reason or it didnt happen or russia was behind it some people just cant shake totalitarian frame of mind

Yup, pretty hard to come up with a meaningful reply when Daddy Putin said at the time that it was fine. Even hardcore Russian nationalists have grown tired of Putin's constant whining how the whole world has now wronged him: https://youtu.be/DRE8f5JzDAE

apparently unlike you, i dont pay much attention to what putin says. all you said in your last post is that something which clearly happened didnt in order to more nicely fit with your world view. hard to argue with that so i will leave it at that. an internet discussion is highly unlikely to change the course of events. my reason for posting is just to show that there exist people who think differently. but i guess to people like you i must be a paid foreign agent. uncle joe taught you well

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#169

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

medo-bear wrote: post #160
mcv wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the US convincing Ukraine, it's Ukraine convincing the US. I don't know if you've noticed, but Zelensky is constantly asking, begging , every country to support Ukraine. You're trying to spin this as something the US wants, but it's not. It's something Putin wanted. Zelensky and the people of Ukraine are (obviously) far more determined to defend their country than anyone else. And many European countries are…

you didnt answer my question. what is the end game for ukraine if putin decides to nuke it? you cant rebuild a nuclear wasteland. chernobil will look like an untouched nature reserve in comparison. people need to honest with ukranians in what to expect from this. this is what makes the whole situation tragic

> what is the end game for ukraine if putin decides to nuke it?

Yes, this is what Putin's propagandists are repeating all the time, threatening to use nukes not just on Ukraine but also on Great Britain and other countries. Apart from the obvious absurdity of contaminating their own land, the big question is, should we agree to all Putins says just because he can use nukes? Is there any limit on what we will do to please him?

Re: Russia confiscates passports of senior officials to stop defections

#170

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

medo-bear wrote: post #145
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is what I often hear on Russian TV. Their narrative is that the war was started bu Ukraine and NATO and Russia is just defending itself. It would be just ridiculous, the problem is I know some people who actually believe it.

in 2008 nato said that ukraine will become part of nato. in 2014 the us supported an overthrow of a democraticaly elected ukranian government. i wonder what makes people suspicious

This makes no sense, the opposite happened: in 2008 NATO refused to take Ukraine in. And a certain lady seems still proud of it.[0]

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20220404-merkel-defend...

Post reply on HN