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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#121

Post by spiderfarmer »

mtts wrote: post #89
spiderfarmer wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I meant that agriculture in our fertile delta is way more efficient than trying to do the same in other countries with less suitable areas.

The agricultural lobby puts this out a lot, but it’s not true. The pig farmers and the dairy farmers that are causing the most problems require vast imports of fodder grown elsewhere. The efficiency of a lot of greenhouse agriculture is questionable as well (which was made obvious when a not insignificant chunk of its production was wound down when supplies of cheap Russian gas dried up.

So energy prices increasing by 300%, eating away profits, on top of record inflation is proof that the whole business is inefficient? Lol, no. Even if a financial shockwave told you anything about the efficiency of green houses (it does not) you can’t base your argument on a war induced fluke.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#122

Post by mtts »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #121
mtts wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agricultural lobby puts this out a lot, but it’s not true. The pig farmers and the dairy farmers that are causing the most problems require vast imports of fodder grown elsewhere. The efficiency of a lot of greenhouse agriculture is questionable as well (which was made obvious when a not insignificant chunk of its production was wound down when supplies of cheap Russian gas dried up.

So energy prices increasing by 300%, eating away profits, on top of record inflation is proof that the whole business is inefficient? Lol, no. Even if a financial shockwave told you anything about the efficiency of green houses (it does not) you can’t base your argument on a war induced fluke.

If a business can only exist if energy prices are unrealistically low, then, yes, it is inefficient.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#123

Post by stev-0 »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39
bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

> There are even people advocating to take the farms from them.

That’s the only option left on the table if they won’t shrink the livestock and diversify as farmers.

Let’s be real: it’s not like this legislation came out of the blue. Nitrogen deposition as a problem is something the sector has known about for a while. Instead of diversifying away from nitrogen emission these companies chose to double down on nitrogen washing technology. Turns out that technology doesn’t work.

Intensive livestock in the way it’s happening now doesn’t have a future in the Netherlands. I’d like to go even further and say that it makes a poor investment anywhere in the world.

Farmers are entrepreneurs. Being an entrepreneur means managing risks and they did that pretty poorly as a sector.

A lot of farmers invited the risk and harvested its profits. Had they diversified they would have been in much better shape.

You can’t eat your cake and have it..

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#124

Post by spiderfarmer »

mtts wrote: post #122
spiderfarmer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So energy prices increasing by 300%, eating away profits, on top of record inflation is proof that the whole business is inefficient? Lol, no. Even if a financial shockwave told you anything about the efficiency of green houses (it does not) you can’t base your argument on a war induced fluke.

If a business can only exist if energy prices are unrealistically low, then, yes, it is inefficient.

So the only time energy is priced realistically is during wartime. Noted.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#125

Post by spiderfarmer »

28304283409234 wrote: post #120
spiderfarmer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Saying you worked hard has nothing to do with privilege. You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. And unlike you, farming families invested almost everything they made back into the farm, for their children, in order to see it continue. And the children (like me) who don’t continue on that farm all have to agree that a large part of their inheritance is gifted to the brother or sister wh…

> You’re repeating some of the words you heard elsewhere out of context. That is quite an arrogant claim, sir. You know not me, nor which words or contexts I consumed.

You certainly addressed the substance of my comment here.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#126

Post by shjake »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #86
spiderfarmer wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Offering a carrot is okay. But offering a carrot and shit talking them while carrying a big stick is something else isn’t it.

And also, a datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient? They don’t pay much taxes and they don’t have many employees. Even the buildings are off the shelve imported from other countries.

> datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient

How is that a sensible comparison? Are you suggesting that if they spread out servers over a large enough area that would improve this somehow? Like let’s place a rack per every hectare of wheat..

> they don’t have many employees.

Yes. The definition of efficiency.

Then again modern agricultural is very not labour intense either, just much less efficient space wise.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#127

Post by shjake »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #63
shjake wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So offering them enough money so that it would be profitable for them to close their farms is bossing around? Using land for housing or (data center for that matter) is just more efficient most of the time.

Offering a carrot is okay. But offering a carrot and shit talking them while carrying a big stick is something else isn’t it.

Across most of Europe farmers are probably one of the most privileged social groups due to all the subsidies, favorable tax treatment and other stuff, though.

Of course there are some very rational reasons for that.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#128

Post by shjake »

mtts wrote: post #122
spiderfarmer wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So energy prices increasing by 300%, eating away profits, on top of record inflation is proof that the whole business is inefficient? Lol, no. Even if a financial shockwave told you anything about the efficiency of green houses (it does not) you can’t base your argument on a war induced fluke.

If a business can only exist if energy prices are unrealistically low, then, yes, it is inefficient.

Were they unrealistically low though? Wind/solar/hydro are supposed to be much cheaper than fossil fuels longterm..

And gas prices are more or less back to where they were before the invasion.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#129

Post by defrost »

shjake wrote: post #126
spiderfarmer wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And also, a datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient? They don’t pay much taxes and they don’t have many employees. Even the buildings are off the shelve imported from other countries.

> datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient How is that a sensible comparison? Are you suggesting that if they spread out servers over a large enough area that would improve this somehow? Like let’s place a rack per every hectare of wheat.. > they don’t have many employees. Yes. The definition of efficiency. Then again modern agricultural is very not labour intense either, ju…

Less efficient?

Are you saying that data centres are more efficient "space wise" at producing food?

Perhaps you're looking for a better comparison.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#130

Post by shjake »

defrost wrote: post #129
shjake wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> datacenter causes way more pollution per square meter so how is that more efficient How is that a sensible comparison? Are you suggesting that if they spread out servers over a large enough area that would improve this somehow? Like let’s place a rack per every hectare of wheat.. > they don’t have many employees. Yes. The definition of efficiency. Then again modern agricultural is very not labour intense either, ju…

Less efficient? Are you saying that data centres are more efficient "space wise" at producing food? Perhaps you're looking for a better comparison.

> Are you saying that data centres are more efficient "space wise" at producing food?

No. They are several magnitudes more efficient at ‘producing’ money. Something you can use to buy food grown somewhere else where land is cheaper or is less desirable for urban or industrial developments.

> Perhaps you're looking for a better comparison.

Not really.

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