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If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

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Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#151

Post by HlessClaudesman »

bilsbie wrote: post #81
osamagirl69 wrote: post #9

A very interesting read, which describes how for ~50 years the community was lead astray by a seemingly simple oversight: studying dead animals instead of living ones! >Charles Darwin theorized that monkeys had the vocal anatomy needed for speech, but lacked the necessary neural mechanisms. >This was the most popular hypothesis until 1969 [when] Lieberman studied the vocal anatomy of a monkey corpse and concluded tha…

Now do dogs. Are they missing any anatomy for speech or is that also neural?

Now do cats. Are they missing any anatomy for speech or is that they just don't feel like performing?

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#152

Post by aaronbrethorst »

eyelidlessness wrote: post #124
engineer_22 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm amazed at the range of vocalizations from huskies

My chihuahua-pit mix has such a range I often describe it as “singing the songs of her people”. Anyway, what qualifies as speech is very subjective and generally anthropomorphic. I understand what my pup is saying almost all of the time, which wouldn’t qualify it as talking by most standards but it’s plain as day to me.

Haha, meanwhile my chihuahua-pit mix only communicates by trembling, booping, performative sneezing, huffing (as opposed to a woof), sometimes grumbling, and yelling at the mailman. Mostly trembles.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#153

Post by pxc »

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #141
dasickis wrote: post #137

We've been building tech to translate dog barks to something meaningful for us to understand. A few things we observed: 1. Dogs are more communicative once they believe you are correctly responsive to their vocalizations 2. Their barks are more differentiated over time and they start to introduce new types of vocalizations or sequences of vocalizations 3. Dogs don't have a structured vocal language as it starts of sl…

We had an old dog move in with us and it’s been interesting because it has developed a new dog culture based on my existing dog. It now barks when someone comes home, barks to go outside etc. It didn’t do any of that before but it has started doing it by watching the existing dog communicate and having people who are more attentive to its needs. Everything I see in dogs suggests that they are sentient, they just don’…

If you ever deliberately raise a puppy, you'll watch the formation of many communication patterns that you create both deliberately (like barking or ringing a bell to go outside) and by accident.

The more I learn about domesticated animals, the more impressed I am by their intelligence and attunement to humans, natural and learned.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#154

Post by pxc »

WalterBright wrote: post #134
OkayPhysicist wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Koko's language skills were misrepresented in a pretty extreme way. Very few recordings of Koko communicating anything more than short phrases were ever released, and those that were never demonstrated much more than word association. I've met dogs and pigs that were able to go fetch the "carrot" versus the "bunny" stuffed animals based on verbal commands, but I'm not going to claim that constitutes mastery of langua…

Language has also been called the "operating system" of the brain. When we think about things, we think in terms of words and language.

This doctrine is called 'linguistic determinism', for those curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism

I don't think it's well-supported but it seems to intuitively appeal to a lot of people.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#155

Post by vidarh »

MagicMoonlight wrote: post #141
dasickis wrote: post #137

We've been building tech to translate dog barks to something meaningful for us to understand. A few things we observed: 1. Dogs are more communicative once they believe you are correctly responsive to their vocalizations 2. Their barks are more differentiated over time and they start to introduce new types of vocalizations or sequences of vocalizations 3. Dogs don't have a structured vocal language as it starts of sl…

We had an old dog move in with us and it’s been interesting because it has developed a new dog culture based on my existing dog. It now barks when someone comes home, barks to go outside etc. It didn’t do any of that before but it has started doing it by watching the existing dog communicate and having people who are more attentive to its needs. Everything I see in dogs suggests that they are sentient, they just don’…

> Everything I see in dogs suggests that they are sentient, they just don’t seem to need language. They speak when it is useful, like for getting attention from people in different rooms, but they don’t really need it beyond that. So they don’t go any further.

If you haven't check out whataboutbunny [1] on Instagram to get an indication of how far dogs can go when given an opportunity. Bunny is trained to use buttons to "speak". A lot of it is very simple and functional ("outside", "play") that could easily be handled by body language and the odd bark, but occasionally you get fairly complex conversations which seems to indicate introspection and fairly complex reasoning that as you say they "just don't seem to need" to be able to express in language in normal conditions.

[1] https://www.instagram.com/whataboutbunny/

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#156

Post by gregoriol »

pxc wrote: post #149
dasickis wrote: post #137

We've been building tech to translate dog barks to something meaningful for us to understand. A few things we observed: 1. Dogs are more communicative once they believe you are correctly responsive to their vocalizations 2. Their barks are more differentiated over time and they start to introduce new types of vocalizations or sequences of vocalizations 3. Dogs don't have a structured vocal language as it starts of sl…

> We've been building tech to translate dog barks to something meaningful for us to understand. Can most dog owners not already understand or differentiate their dogs' barks? I can tell from the quality and context of my dog's barks, whether he - wants something (food, water, attention) - is angry - is scared - wants to play - is excited - is voicing a territorial dispute and I think most dog people can also be confi…

While maybe not very useful, it would be fun to have a real translation of dogs (and other animals). I have a lot of questions that I'd like them to answer.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#157

Post by DocTomoe »

HlessClaudesman wrote: post #151
bilsbie wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do dogs. Are they missing any anatomy for speech or is that also neural?

Now do cats. Are they missing any anatomy for speech or is that they just don't feel like performing?

I would not be surprised if cats actually are capable of communication, but don't because they feel superior.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#158

Post by qikInNdOutReply »

osamagirl69 wrote: post #9

A very interesting read, which describes how for ~50 years the community was lead astray by a seemingly simple oversight: studying dead animals instead of living ones! >Charles Darwin theorized that monkeys had the vocal anatomy needed for speech, but lacked the necessary neural mechanisms. >This was the most popular hypothesis until 1969 [when] Lieberman studied the vocal anatomy of a monkey corpse and concluded tha…

Human exceptionalism has poisoned so many studies.

My pet-theory why primates do not vocalize is that the neural difference is not even that cemented, it has to be some difference at the language acquiring stage as babys and children, were one human pattern matching center for sound fires constantly, acquiring the language "keys" and theirs dont.

And it all cascades from there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation

It would be really fascinating, to help them acquiring language and uplift them. Maybe its even mammal universal applyable.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#159

Post by andirk »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #158
osamagirl69 wrote: post #9

A very interesting read, which describes how for ~50 years the community was lead astray by a seemingly simple oversight: studying dead animals instead of living ones! >Charles Darwin theorized that monkeys had the vocal anatomy needed for speech, but lacked the necessary neural mechanisms. >This was the most popular hypothesis until 1969 [when] Lieberman studied the vocal anatomy of a monkey corpse and concluded tha…

Human exceptionalism has poisoned so many studies. My pet-theory why primates do not vocalize is that the neural difference is not even that cemented, it has to be some difference at the language acquiring stage as babys and children, were one human pattern matching center for sound fires constantly, acquiring the language "keys" and theirs dont. And it all cascades from there. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_…

I like that theory but the question still stands that why can parrots do it? And they're no monkey

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#160

Post by andirk »

DocTomoe wrote: post #157
HlessClaudesman wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now do cats. Are they missing any anatomy for speech or is that they just don't feel like performing?

I would not be surprised if cats actually are capable of communication, but don't because they feel superior.

Cats don't even meow or purr at each other much. They just stare each other down and, as my parents told me when I was a lil kid, they speak through mind reading. I still believe that.
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