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Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

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Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t have faith in any of our society’s major institutions because they’re all corrupt https://youtu.be/z6IO2DZjOkY

Institutional corruption will not be solved by losing trust in the institutions. When the institution dies because nobody trusts it you don't all of a sudden get good health care. So if you believe that our medical institutions are corrupted, anger at the institution itself is misdirected. The corruptive force is billionaires and the measurement for the level of corruption is wealth disparity.

Help us out here. Let's say hypothetically we confiscate all wealth above $1B. How exactly would that improve average healthcare outcomes? Please take us through the causal chain step by step.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#202

Half the posts in this thread bring back the old SlashDot adage: The plural of anecdote is not data. I am not sure what the point this article is trying to make is. I do not feel more informed for having read it. It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing. Is it good, is it bad? It doesn't matter. The end result is damaged institutional trust. How many people woul…

> It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing.

Isn’t at least the section about false positives an indication that doctors know what they’re doing, and know what they cannot do?

> Why did the author not present the institutional position or data supporting yearly checkups and why it's misleading?

Because it’s not a scientific article? The article mentions the arguments and has links to a paper in the BMJ (paywalled, unfortunately)

> We are not experts, we should leave decision making to people who know what they don't know rather than to people who don't know what they don't know (us).

So, why do you want this article to show data supporting its claims?

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was listening to Peter Attia on some podcast and he says to essentially throw out any BP reading that didn't occur after sitting down for five minutes. In his practice they have patients measure many times a day for multiple weeks just to get a baseline point to work from. More and more i find that, at least in America, if you're talking to a GP you're just talking to a human interface of insurance approved treatme…

Yah, I purchased one of the automatic monitoring machines at home after having a couple slightly elevated readings at dentist/etc offices. And what I learned is that I can swing my blood pressure from slightly low to slightly elevated simply by how I sit, how relaxed I am, and untold other variables that result in being able to consciously swing it 20+ mmHg, and other times it can swing that much (or more) just betwe…

I was laid off in November, coincidentally on the same day I had a doctors exam. I didn't want to reschedule it so I went. My BP was suddenly 150-160. They were somewhat concerned (I'm young and almost an underweight BMI) until I explained I just got laid off about 4 hours ago. Fun stuff. Weird memory.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#205
post #92

Personal example: my primary care physician scheduled me for a physical, including picking the date, without even asking. It just showed up on my online chart. Okay, I hadn't had a physical for a while, so I just went with it. While stopped at an intersection on the way to his office, a woman plowed into me and 2 other cars because she wasn't paying attention, and was likely on her phone. That wreck generated $45K of…

What type of workouts were you doing, were they unusually strenuous?

This reads as if the general population doesn't work out — if they did, your workouts wouldn't be that out of the norm.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Institutional corruption will not be solved by losing trust in the institutions. When the institution dies because nobody trusts it you don't all of a sudden get good health care. So if you believe that our medical institutions are corrupted, anger at the institution itself is misdirected. The corruptive force is billionaires and the measurement for the level of corruption is wealth disparity.

> Institutional corruption will not be solved by losing trust in the institutions. When the institution dies because nobody trusts it you don't all of a sudden get good health care. That's a fair point. "Burn it down" is not a good solution. The system, even while corrupted, still results in vastly improved outcomes relative to what people could expect 100-150 years ago. > So if you believe that our medical instituti…

I was not being reductive.

Money gets to vote on candidates before people do. Before any general election there is a primary, and to win the primary you do fundraising. People with money give politicians money with the implicit understanding that making anti-donor decisions will result in withdrawal of future money or (thanks to citizens united) unlimited contributions to their opponent.

Money literally votes on political candidates before any person does. That is why we have a "democracy" more responsive to money than to the will of the average voter.

Even if you look at it as a black box, Princeton did a study and asked if the legislation our politicians pass correlate most with the average citizen, interest groups, or the desires of rich people, the correlation was highest with rich people: https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/default/files/mgilens/fi...

  Multivariate analysis indicates that economic elites and organized 
  groups representing business interests have substantial independent 
  impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and 
  mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence.
Here you can watch Harvard Law professor Lawrence Lessig talk about this issue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJy8vTu66tE

As wealth concentrates, it is able to purchase and corrupt further institutions. Bezos bought WaPo, Musk bought Twitter, I'm sure there are more examples. Do you think that is a form of power that is able to manipulate public opinion or government policy? Do you think ownership of a media outlet could help a person concentrate their wealth or fight being taxed?

Even from a mathematical approach. If Billionaires are able to earn 5% year over year interest at minimal risk, while large swathes of people will never make enough to have a savings, what do you think the long term consequences of that will be? If inequality is increasing and never decreasing, what do you think the long term effects will be? What types of things cause inequality to decrease, are we doing those things?

How much wealth has to concentrate before you are comfortable labeling it oligarchy?

Here is Yale history professor and expert in European history Timothy Snyder talking about oligarchy, the rule of the wealthy few. "What is oligarchy?": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biZVrh821RA

In this video he explores what oligarchy is and what effect oligarchy (the state of extreme wealth inequality -- too many billionaires) has on social programs like healthcare, namely that there won't be social programs/investment in institutions.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#207
post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the solution is just leaving our complex decisions over to others. I think the solution is that we all need to be better informed. A doctor doesn't decide to do something for us unless we're incapacitated. The doctor informs us of our options and risks and we get to make the decisions ourselves. In the same vein (vain pun would have been better), we need more opportunities to decide for ourselves than w…

What you are arguing is that we should be a low trust society: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_trust_and_low_trust_socie... No. The government should provide consequences for those who violate trust promoting the idea that I can trust someone else who is from the same society I am. Here is a game that shows what happens at a societal level when doctors lie or mechanics over charge: https://ncase.me/trust/ In the g…

The government is us. Not some aliens. We should be democratically deciding what is correct and what is a violation and what the consequences for violating trust are. We should not hand that decision over to a few elected representatives. This should be a collective democratic process.

* legalize abortion? yes or no

* go to war? yes or no

* arm teachers? yes or no

* corporate news outlet allowed to sell ad time to corporations they report on? yes or no

* nondemocratically run businesseses allowed to function as a news outlet? yes or no

More democracy, not less.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t have faith in any of our society’s major institutions because they’re all corrupt https://youtu.be/z6IO2DZjOkY

Institutional corruption will not be solved by losing trust in the institutions. When the institution dies because nobody trusts it you don't all of a sudden get good health care. So if you believe that our medical institutions are corrupted, anger at the institution itself is misdirected. The corruptive force is billionaires and the measurement for the level of corruption is wealth disparity.

> Institutional corruption will not be solved

I would just stop there. For over 10,000 years we've had two systems: one where a small group of very rich people control society and admit it, and one where they don't. The former was arguably better, at least it was honest.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can’t have faith in any of our society’s major institutions because they’re all corrupt https://youtu.be/z6IO2DZjOkY

I have watched most of Dr. Fung's videos but had not seen this one. Hopefully he also points out that the FDA is funded by the very people they are testing and often allow the people they are testing to perform the tests.

He does.

Re: Experts warn yearly checkups carry risks and do not reduce mortality

#210

Half the posts in this thread bring back the old SlashDot adage: The plural of anecdote is not data. I am not sure what the point this article is trying to make is. I do not feel more informed for having read it. It seems a populist appeal to the idea that the medical institution has no idea what it is doing. Is it good, is it bad? It doesn't matter. The end result is damaged institutional trust. How many people woul…

The point I got from the article is to bias against medical interventions. That doesn't mean never consider them, but they really need to have a serious reason to occur.

It doesn't have to that doctors are bad at their jobs, but rather that they're humans, and humans are hardwired to try to make other humans happy, and patients like being actively given treatment as opposed to "have you considered sleeping well, eating well, and just letting your body do its thing?"

The sources that the article has, an article in the BMJ[0] and Cochrane[1], are actually targeted at primary care physicians (after all, random laypeople don't read medical journals!), to basically tell them to chill, and tell their patients to just let themselves be.

[0] https://www.bmj.com/content/348/bmj.g3680 [1] https://www.cochrane.org/news/featured-review-are-general-he...

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