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If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

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41–50 of 221 posts

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#41
post #20

It's interesting to compare this "sound-talk" that parrots can easily accomplish with the obviously greater intelligence of apes, who can't reproduce human sounds, with the debate over whether chatGPT is intelligent or not. Note that Koko was obviously a greater communicator than any parrot ever was. Is mimicking human behaviour a necessary, or even sufficient, criteria for demonstrating cognition and intelligence?

I'm not sure how obvious it is; that story seems just as likely to have been fraudulent as true.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#42
post #28

Parrots can't talk

I have a parrot. He can talk, both contextually and randomly (the former much less often, but does still happen). Not sure what your criteria for "talking" are but, by all of my own measures, my parrot sounds pretty much exactly like me in most cases, and like a child in most others. The words are clearly distinguishable, understandable, and in multiple languages (he lives in a multi-language household). So, yes. Par…

My parrot will on every occasion that it stumbles, let out a surprised "Oh!" followed by a "Good boy!" when he gets back up again. I didn't sit around all day teaching him to say "Oh!" whenever I pushed him off the branch and praise him when he got back up again. I also don't tell myself I'm a "Good boy!" whenever I get back up from a stumble (which thankfully doesn't happen often at home to begin with). I'm sure my parrot doesn't know what "Oh!" or "Good boy" means, that is what the words mean in a human context. I'm also sure that he doesn't know what snapping finger noise followed by a stern "Ah-ah!" means, but he has used that on one occasion when he was mad at me and wanted to tell me to back off if I treasured the skin on my hands. (A learned behaviour from his first and previous owner).

...but at the end of the day, speech is in many ways "just" a series of correct sounds at correct times in correct situations, right? Does my parrot have a conversation with me? Well yes, sometimes, but not with words. Does my parrot mimic human words and phrases? Also yes, and sometimes in the most perfect situations possible.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#44
post #40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Or, you know, maybe your comment is the conclusion of the article at all.

Could you care to explain why you expected the comment to be about the conclusion of the article instead of an opinion about the comment it was replying to?

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#45
post #20

It's interesting to compare this "sound-talk" that parrots can easily accomplish with the obviously greater intelligence of apes, who can't reproduce human sounds, with the debate over whether chatGPT is intelligent or not. Note that Koko was obviously a greater communicator than any parrot ever was. Is mimicking human behaviour a necessary, or even sufficient, criteria for demonstrating cognition and intelligence?

Koko's language skills were misrepresented in a pretty extreme way. Very few recordings of Koko communicating anything more than short phrases were ever released, and those that were never demonstrated much more than word association. I've met dogs and pigs that were able to go fetch the "carrot" versus the "bunny" stuffed animals based on verbal commands, but I'm not going to claim that constitutes mastery of language.

Koko primarily communicated via repeating individual words that she'd been able to correlate with getting immediate effects. "Food", "Water", etc. When she did use multi-word phrases, they had no semblance of grammar: human babies will quickly work out the difference between "Me bite him" and "him bite me", whereas Koko never did. Frankly, despite being billed as a decisive blow against the Chomsky school of linguistics, Koko probably stands as strong evidence for it.

IMO, the massive complexity gap between human-level language compared to the relatively tight pack of merely possessing vocabulary animals, pretty directly correlated with levels of problem solving skills and tool use, should signal that there's something to the idea that our cognitive and language abilities are pretty closely linked. Mimicking human behavior may not be necessary for intelligence, but some kind of language likely is.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#47
post #18

A very interesting read, which describes how for ~50 years the community was lead astray by a seemingly simple oversight: studying dead animals instead of living ones! >Charles Darwin theorized that monkeys had the vocal anatomy needed for speech, but lacked the necessary neural mechanisms. >This was the most popular hypothesis until 1969 [when] Lieberman studied the vocal anatomy of a monkey corpse and concluded tha…

[flagged]

> human = monkey + LLM

This is an old tradition in popular science, replacing the humans are animals with souls analogy with the current fad. (Analogies to clockworks, printed circuits, et cetera.) They’re wrong because they’re oversimplifying for pithiness. Not explanatory value.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#48
post #20

It's interesting to compare this "sound-talk" that parrots can easily accomplish with the obviously greater intelligence of apes, who can't reproduce human sounds, with the debate over whether chatGPT is intelligent or not. Note that Koko was obviously a greater communicator than any parrot ever was. Is mimicking human behaviour a necessary, or even sufficient, criteria for demonstrating cognition and intelligence?

> Note that Koko was obviously a greater communicator than any parrot ever was.

Sadly, I don't think this is actually true, despite the popular belief.

See https://youtu.be/e7wFotDKEF4

TL;DW - Data was VERY cherry-picked to make it look like she could communicate via sign language. At best, she was responding via rote memorization and had no idea what she was actually communicating.

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#49
post #18

A very interesting read, which describes how for ~50 years the community was lead astray by a seemingly simple oversight: studying dead animals instead of living ones! >Charles Darwin theorized that monkeys had the vocal anatomy needed for speech, but lacked the necessary neural mechanisms. >This was the most popular hypothesis until 1969 [when] Lieberman studied the vocal anatomy of a monkey corpse and concluded tha…

[flagged]

I've also been wondering this. Can we train an LLM on dolphin noises?

I suspect the problem is the training data. If we don't know what the dolphin squeaks mean, we can't really filter the training data to include only meaningful "language." But I do wonder how far we could get by just dumping a bunch of dolphin recordings into an LLM and getting it to make the same noises...

The other side of that same problem is that we would have no way of knowing whether it's working. Even if it could "communicate" perfectly, we would have no way of understanding it, aside from watching real dolphins interact with it. But maybe we could build an artificial dolphin, load an LLM into it, and drop it in a pool with real dolphins... just to see what happens...

Re: If parrots can talk, why can’t monkeys?

#50
post #26
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That’s not the conclusion at all. The article says monkeys can understand and produce words (via signs). They can’t talk because they don’t have control of their larynx. They’re mute essentially.

Was just riffing on the comment that was replying to.

So is the control issue in the larynx or in the brain?

And if it was the brain, could some sort of AI system do brain larynx communication for the monkeys? (Via electrodes maybe?)

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