Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

presidentti.fi

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

141–150 of 218 posts

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#141

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

Animatronio wrote: post #122
qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I life in a european country, and to be honest, im shocked how many of the "old guard" politicians and diplomats consider the whole crisis just a temporary upheaval in the russia relations, that can be waited out before everything is normal again. Waiting to resume the careers as if nothing happened. A quarter million people dead, because these corrupt non-show of a generation failed to act decisevly, hypnotized itse…

What would you have them do? March tens of thousands of young Europeans into the trenches?

If the OP is talking about specific politicians like Merkel, Schroeder, even Schulz...

First, they should say loud and clear they made a terrible mistake (I believe Merkel said something like this quietly and not clearly). Second, they should do everything to help Ukraine and Ukrainians. Yes, a lot has been done. Not enough and not fast enough.

BTW I still feel amazed how quickly and efficiently they dealt with power plant/stations repairs when Putin decided to freeze the whole population to death in the middle of the winter. All my respect to these brave folks.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#142

Post by Animatronio »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #141
Animatronio wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would you have them do? March tens of thousands of young Europeans into the trenches?

If the OP is talking about specific politicians like Merkel, Schroeder, even Schulz... First, they should say loud and clear they made a terrible mistake (I believe Merkel said something like this quietly and not clearly). Second, they should do everything to help Ukraine and Ukrainians. Yes, a lot has been done. Not enough and not fast enough. BTW I still feel amazed how quickly and efficiently they dealt with power…

I see no indication OP is indeed talking about Germany. Could be, although Austrian politicians were most recently speaking of waiting out the war. Anyways I find it very funny they are talking such a combative stance from the comfort of their home in western EU.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#143

Post by foverzar »

diego_moita wrote: post #98
throwaway4aday wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aggressive war is inexcusable and I condemn all nations that engage in it including Russia and the United States. Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty just as all other nations do, but what you posted is shallow thinking. Look at a map of Europe, put yourself in the mind of a highly suspicious and pessimistic person and ask yourself "how would I invade Russia?" "how do I get an SRBM or MRBM within striking range of…

You're stuck in the 19th century imperialist mindset, like most of your Russian/Chinese compatriots. Come to the 21st century and ask yourself: "why war when we can have commerce"?

> "why war when we can have commerce"?

Can't help but sad chuckle over this whole clash of rams battle of perspectives and the fact that Russia, Ukraine and other western countries had somewhat great relationships at the beginning of the century.

One could ask the same question from the Russian perspective when analyzing how Russia-West relations have deteriorated from Russia being in love with it, towards Russia having a lovecraftian fear of it (from Russian perspective, this is more of a proxy war with the West). This is actually the TLDR of Putin's Munich speech in late 2000-something.

I wonder what could be games theory solution here. Russia and the West don't trust each other and can't meet each-other expectations of peaceful coexistence - Ukraine got caught in the crossfire. What could hypothetically serve as a common ground for aligning the perspectives before it inertly escalates too far?

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#144

Post by dang »

t344344 wrote: post #19
rippercushions wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden would very much like to join NATO, it's Kurdish bees in Erdogan's bonnet and a pro-Russian Hungarian dictator lite that are holding them up.

[flagged]

We've banned this account for repeatedly posting unsubstantive and flamebait comments. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#145

Post by slaw »

tejohnso wrote: post #134
boomskats wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's as much a case of whataboutism as your statement is of ignoratio elenchi. That's not to say that I don't agree with your second statement. However, global geopolitics is far more complicated than how it tends to be presented to the general population, especially at times of war, and I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way. We shouldn't be so quick to dismiss arguments as fallacie…

> I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way You're right I didn't ask in a malicious or dismissive way. And I don't see why my question was flagged. I'm not making an argument, I'm just asking a question of someone who has more involvement than I have and may have something interesting to say on the matter. I guess I can't even ask a question if it mentions detail that goes against the…

I agree with what you wrote, I only tried to point that your comment, even if valid is not related to Finland joining NATO.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#146

Post by t0bia_s »

qikInNdOutReply wrote: post #119
IgorPartola wrote: post #47

As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NA…

I life in a european country, and to be honest, im shocked how many of the "old guard" politicians and diplomats consider the whole crisis just a temporary upheaval in the russia relations, that can be waited out before everything is normal again. Waiting to resume the careers as if nothing happened. A quarter million people dead, because these corrupt non-show of a generation failed to act decisevly, hypnotized itse…

You can grab a weapon and go to help Ukranians right now, instead of complaining on internet. Will you do it?

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#147

Post by Zigurd »

unmole wrote: post #94
IgorPartola wrote: post #47

As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NA…

> Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. In 2019, Russia produced almost 3 times as much wheat as Ukraine. The invasion was launched by a deranged psychopath, let's not pretend Russia in anyways benefited from this.

Russian wheat production is large-scale, but horribly inefficient. This was launched, in part, as a "resource war."

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#148

Post by Animatronio »

flexie wrote: post #140
Animatronio wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. - Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs - Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position - your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

All these wars were before NATO existed. Ukraine’s defense is a formidable army which has stopped the advance of what most experts thought was the second most powerful army in the world, and the fact that Ukraine is supplied weapons, training and ammunition from NATO countries doesn’t change that. It only adds to the point that NATO itself recognizes that Ukraine belongs in the alliance. If Ukraine loses the war it w…

Then one could also argue that no NATO country has ever fought off Russia.

Ukraine barely stopped the Russians, even with the massive help of NATO (both before and after the 2021 invasion). It doesn't follow at all that NATO thinks Ukr is a member. Ukr is just that - a buffer country that should not be taken by Russia. This is not meant in an offensive way, think of it as a neutral country like Switzerland or Austria.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#149

Post by dragonwriter »

Animatronio wrote: post #92
flexie wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways: - Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary - Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or…

- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. - Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs - Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position - your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

> Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany.

It (presuming it succeeds) will be the only country to have fought off the Russian Federation, or anything referred to (even if only somewhat loosely) as “Russia” in the third millenium.

Fought (and in some of the cases you cited got steamrolled by) the USSR in WWII is... not particularly relevant.

> Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position

Its not if it becomes a Russian satellite.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#150

Post by stametseater »

Animatronio wrote: post #103
ihatepython wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read between the lines. They can't openly say that the US was responsible for Nordstream.

Why couldn't they? If their findings support this theory then they must come forward and say so.

Because they need America as an ally a lot more than they need justice for the vandalism of NS2. Don't like it? Tough nuts.
Post reply on HN