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Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

presidentti.fi

131–140 of 218 posts

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you trying to say here? Technically true is still true, so we should take it into account when making a decision.

That we should take into account that NATO is already 'at their doorstep', regardless of which weapon systems are where, since they can be deployed anywhere later.

Then you'll have no problem explaining this:

https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/03/26/poland-nuclear-arm...

while also this:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/05/poland-us-nucl...

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#132
post #69

Long overdue, but better late than never. Although the circumstances are grim due to the war in Ukraine, I’m happy we can be in alliance with our European and Northern American kin (and hopefully Sweden will follow suit soon once the wrinkles in relations with the countries stalling get process get sorted out, so we can get on with further integrating our defences both within Nordics and the Baltian countries). Thank…

Every invasion of Russia in modern history has been defeated by winter, and now NATO is gaining the world's best winter fighting forces as an ally. Even Moscow knows not to f* with the Finns. Couldn't be happier about this alliance.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That we should take into account that NATO is already 'at their doorstep', regardless of which weapon systems are where, since they can be deployed anywhere later.

Then you'll have no problem explaining this: https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2023/03/26/poland-nuclear-arm... while also this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/oct/05/poland-us-nucl...

I'm not sure what part you are asking me to explain to you? They seem relatively self-explanatory.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#134
post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is whataboutism. There are no saints in this world.

It's as much a case of whataboutism as your statement is of ignoratio elenchi. That's not to say that I don't agree with your second statement. However, global geopolitics is far more complicated than how it tends to be presented to the general population, especially at times of war, and I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way. We shouldn't be so quick to dismiss arguments as fallacie…

> I don't think the OP asked the question in a malicious or dismissive way

You're right I didn't ask in a malicious or dismissive way. And I don't see why my question was flagged. I'm not making an argument, I'm just asking a question of someone who has more involvement than I have and may have something interesting to say on the matter.

I guess I can't even ask a question if it mentions detail that goes against the accepted western narrative. Not here anyway.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand who you think is to blame here? Was NATO supposed to accept Ukraine without Ukraine applying for membership?

[flagged]

Getting hung up on the transactional piece of this is tragic. Ukraine constitutes a society that has embraced (evidenced by their revolution, stiff resistance so far, etc.) enlightenment values - the worth of an individual, a rules based society, meritocracy, etc. Before we run to all the counterfactuals, these values are generally instilled in the culture (particularly the younger demographics). NATO essentially exists to protect this common, values-based order.

Not granting membership earlier was those countries (mentioned in other comments) over-rotating on transactional-based benefits, over value-based ones. That's why there's such frustration now over getting Ukraine into NATO now. Will it happen? No, diplomatically impossible while they're engaged in hot war. But the moral outrage is reasonable given the bloody price they've paid in defense of the values NATO exists to protect. To clearly connect the dots...considering Ukraine as part of NATO benefits NATO in that it allows them to uphold those values it exists to serve, giving it purpose and strength from the unity of its member countries (and moral investment of the individuals who serve its armies).

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Aggressive war is inexcusable and I condemn all nations that engage in it including Russia and the United States. Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty just as all other nations do, but what you posted is shallow thinking. Look at a map of Europe, put yourself in the mind of a highly suspicious and pessimistic person and ask yourself "how would I invade Russia?" "how do I get an SRBM or MRBM within striking range of…

The US is taking advantage of a golden strategic opportunity, because why wouldn't they, but it's Russia scoring the own goal here. If they wanted to stop destabilizing themselves they can always leave - the war ends literally the second they turn their tanks around and drive home. Nobody is going to follow them into Russia. They don't even have to do anything diplomatically. Just leave, no special agreements require…

> they can always leave - the war ends literally the second they turn their tanks around and drive home

I wonder if that's actually realistically true.

The civil war has been going on for far longer and it will have to be dealt with. Ukrainian government seems to have also been signaling that its goal is to liberate Crimea, so this is also something that will be going on.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand who you think is to blame here? Was NATO supposed to accept Ukraine without Ukraine applying for membership?

I believe Ukraine did apply, or at least indicate they wanted to. The real reason Ukraine did not get invited to join NATO is that, even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea, lots of people in Europe wanted to believe that it was still possible to do business with Russia, and that they would come around eventually. There are a lot of people who still believe that doing business with someone makes them come around to dem…

> even after the 2014 invasion of Crimea, lots of people in Europe wanted to believe that it was still possible to do business with Russia

Frankly this is true in the US too. It's true everywhere in the west, where there are inexplicable enclaves of Russophilic sentiment that flies in the face of all reason and evidence. Tech bros think they're a great new market. Finance wonks think they're a regulatory backdoor into European money. Old guard tankies still think they're anti-imperialist heroes. Reactionary right wingers think they're ethnic paragons fighting the culture war the west is too afraid of. Name a demographic, and you'll find a pack of sincere Russian apologists hiding in it somewhere.

When the history books finally get written once all the partisans are dead, the ability of this tiny, shrinking Russian state to effect this kind of information war is going to be the subject of book after book.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#138
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways: - Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary - Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or…

- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. - Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs - Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position - your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

[deleted]

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#139

Excellent. Very much hope that enough pressure can be applied at all levels to ensure that Sweden is also soon approved by all NATO member states.

My impression is that Turkey does not believe the rest of NATO takes the threat to it from some Kurdish organizations seriously. I have no access to unbiased data to say whether there is any actual significant threat to Turkey's security from Kurdish groups in Sweden, but it does appear that Turkey actually believes this to be a problem. The main risk here is that, now that Finland is a member of NATO, it is not clea…

Things may change based on the upcoming Turkish presidential election. If Ergodan gets kicked out, Turkish policy to Sweden will change.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#140
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways: - Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary - Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or…

- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany. - Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs - Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position - your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

All these wars were before NATO existed.

Ukraine’s defense is a formidable army which has stopped the advance of what most experts thought was the second most powerful army in the world, and the fact that Ukraine is supplied weapons, training and ammunition from NATO countries doesn’t change that. It only adds to the point that NATO itself recognizes that Ukraine belongs in the alliance.

If Ukraine loses the war it will cease to be a buffer and become part of Russia.

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