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Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

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Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#91

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

credit_guy wrote: post #56
IgorPartola wrote: post #47

As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NA…

I don't understand who you think is to blame here? Was NATO supposed to accept Ukraine without Ukraine applying for membership?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Bucharest_summit

> United States, Canada, Poland, Romania, the Czechs and the Baltic States, strongly supported Ukraine and Georgia becoming NATO action plan members; however, they were strongly opposed by Germany, France, Italy, Spain, the Netherlands and Belgium.

Mere months later Russia invades Georgia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War

France and Germany are to blame.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#92

Post by Animatronio »

flexie wrote: post #84
Animatronio wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Ukrainian NATO membership does benefit NATO in several ways: - Ukraine is the only country in Europe to have fought off NATO's main adversary - Ukraine has a large, powerful and experienced army, much larger than those of most NATO countries - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the older NATO members as a adding another buffer state - Ukraine in NATO will be seen by the newer NATO members such as the Baltic countries or…

- Ukraine is the only country to have fought off Russia, except Finland, Lithuania, Poland, Germany.

- Ukraine's army if frankly in tatters, being propped by massive supplies of ammo, weapons and mercs

- Ukraine is already a buffer state by virtue of its geographical position

- your last 3 points are simply appeals to emotions and in no way arguments for Ukraine's membership.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#93

Post by coffeebeqn »

TearsInTheRain wrote: post #83

What is the US interest in accepting more countries into NATO? Just to solidify its hegemony?

The US grand strategy is to build the largest military, democratic and economic alliance in order to dominate world affairs? Finland (and Sweden) punches above their weight in all three

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#94

Post by unmole »

IgorPartola wrote: post #47

As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NA…

> Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen.

In 2019, Russia produced almost 3 times as much wheat as Ukraine. The invasion was launched by a deranged psychopath, let's not pretend Russia in anyways benefited from this.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#95

Post by greedo »

Animatronio wrote: post #82
postingawayonhn wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It probably would have deterred Russia from invading and saved most NATO countries a ton of money. Basically the entire point of NATO is to stop Russia going to war with its neighbiors. And now Ukraine is going to be quite a week equipped and experienced ally. Certainly a country NATO should be happy to have on its side.

But NATO literally (and I also mean geographically) NATO has Ukr on its side. So what more would a country like say Portugal gain from Ukraine's NATO membership, except perhaps having to contribute to their defense even more?

Portugal has barely hit the 2% goal for defense spending that NATO members are supposed to be targeting. So it's not like they'd be spending more to protect Ukraine.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#96

Post by ihatepython »

snehk wrote: post #60
Olphs wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless they finally cooperate with Germany when it comes to the Nord Stream bombings instead of hiding their findings. Didn't see that coming

Well, that's just my opinion. Germany's infrastructure was attacked, Sweden said "We're not gonna share our findings with German intelligence". Not sure how there's any situation in which Germany should go to a literal war - no questions asked - should Sweden be attacked if Sweden cannot even share their findings when it comes to an attack on an supposed ally. Would you be willing to help out your neighbor if he told…

Read between the lines. They can't openly say that the US was responsible for Nordstream.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#97

Post by assholeconny »

Zigurd wrote: post #7

It has been understated what a disaster this is for Putin's paranoid war plans: Ukraine, the Baltics, Poland, Moldova, etc. are all on the list to be occupied because these are what he thinks are key to the security of Russia, and that Russia is entitled to rule these places. Now not only is Ukraine out of reach, he has gained 800 miles of border directly exposed to NATO. A single road near this new NATO border conne…

[dead]

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#98

Post by diego_moita »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #68
alkonaut wrote: post #6

"I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep" - Vladimir Vladimirovich, master strategist "Whoa, if countries are annexed willy nilly then we better join NATO before it happens to us" - Every single one of those doorsteps

Aggressive war is inexcusable and I condemn all nations that engage in it including Russia and the United States. Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty just as all other nations do, but what you posted is shallow thinking. Look at a map of Europe, put yourself in the mind of a highly suspicious and pessimistic person and ask yourself "how would I invade Russia?" "how do I get an SRBM or MRBM within striking range of…

You're stuck in the 19th century imperialist mindset, like most of your Russian/Chinese compatriots.

Come to the 21st century and ask yourself: "why war when we can have commerce"?

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#99

Post by khochesh_kushat »

throwaway4aday wrote: post #68
alkonaut wrote: post #6

"I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep" - Vladimir Vladimirovich, master strategist "Whoa, if countries are annexed willy nilly then we better join NATO before it happens to us" - Every single one of those doorsteps

Aggressive war is inexcusable and I condemn all nations that engage in it including Russia and the United States. Ukraine has a right to its sovereignty just as all other nations do, but what you posted is shallow thinking. Look at a map of Europe, put yourself in the mind of a highly suspicious and pessimistic person and ask yourself "how would I invade Russia?" "how do I get an SRBM or MRBM within striking range of…

The US is taking advantage of a golden strategic opportunity, because why wouldn't they, but it's Russia scoring the own goal here. If they wanted to stop destabilizing themselves they can always leave - the war ends literally the second they turn their tanks around and drive home. Nobody is going to follow them into Russia. They don't even have to do anything diplomatically. Just leave, no special agreements required, and the war is over.

A peace that grants Russia the Sudetenland as a consolation prize along with a guarantee that Ukraine is sovereign (but with a big asterisk in that they are also not sovereign in the sense that they are able to join an alliance of their choosing to protect themselves from aggressors) is just an invitation for Russia to consolidate the new territory and prepare the next push. And not being able to see that is for me much more shallow thinking.

Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April

#100

Post by [deleted] »

unmole wrote: post #94
IgorPartola wrote: post #47

As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NA…

> Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. In 2019, Russia produced almost 3 times as much wheat as Ukraine. The invasion was launched by a deranged psychopath, let's not pretend Russia in anyways benefited from this.

[deleted]
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