Whatever Putin thought he would accomplish, it completely backfired. But the Ukrainian people shouldn't have to pay the price of his lunacy. Neither does his own people which I know too well to know a lot are also suffering from having to fight against their brethren. Stupid war.
Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
41–50 of 218 posts
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#42Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#43This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.
What about Albania ? or Slovakia ? or Spain ?
Where do you draw the line
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#44Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#45This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.
Article 5 says it will be considered an attack against "them all", not against the US. In reality this is very convenient for US. What ukraine is suffering now is what would happen if russia invaded finland: the US would provide endless material support and the threat of nukes, but the vast majority of damage and losses would be Finnish. NATO acts as a shield for the US in Europe, keeping the wars away from the Americas. That's how it has been designed to be from the beginning
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#46This is an excellent deal for Finland, whose sovereignty is protected. Is it the same for the US? Do I want an attack against Finland to be considered an attack against the US? An attack against the US can unleash the end of humanity. I find very risky to leave this at the whims of some out of touch Russian dictator.
Yes. This is good for the US. Russia has already chosen to be an anti-US adversary. A unified response to Russia is more efficient and more effective.
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#47As a Ukrainian immigrant living in the US the current situation in Ukraine is infuriating. I left Ukraine when I was a teenager nearly a quarter of a century ago and it was obvious to me then that sooner or later Russia would want its breadbasket back and an invasion would happen. How was this not clear to those in power? Zelinsky started the process of trying to get the country’s ducks in a row to be able to join NATO and I was happy about that, but it was obviously a little too obvious and a little too late. Russia in the early 2000s was in no shape to invade and that was the time to make this move. But corruption and every level of the government prevented it and gave Russia multiple openings to fuck with Ukraine, from installing pro-Russian presidents, to squeezing Ukraine with gas prices, to eventually annexing Crimea with little to no consequences.
How many lives would have not been completely destroyed had the powers that be 15-20 years ago gotten their act together?
I should say that IMO Zelinsky is doing as excellent a job as he possibly can with the situation now. The main issue is not joining NATO when it wouldn’t have resulted in war before the process can be completed. And maybe NATO needs a provisional membership process that allows a country to be temporarily considered an ally via a much quicker path so that while it gains full membership it cannot be invaded.
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#48"I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep" - Vladimir Vladimirovich, master strategist "Whoa, if countries are annexed willy nilly then we better join NATO before it happens to us" - Every single one of those doorsteps
> I must invade a neighboring country to prevent having NATO on my doorstep
Even without involving Finland, it's worse than that. If he successfully invades and conquers Ukraine, he will certainly have NATO at his doorstep. I doubt this was his real reasoning.
Maybe the plan was to take only as much of Ukraine to show that he could, if he wanted to, take the whole. Effectively turning the Ukraine into a no-mans-land and maintaining the threat of "don't join NATO, or else..." And Finland doesn't have oil to profit from, so he likely had no plans of ever touching that wasp's nest.
I'm not a politician nor military strategist, but I prefer not underestimating powerful people when thinking about their strategies.
Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#49Re: Finland Becomes a Member of NATO on Tuesday 4 April
#50Earlier quoted context omitted.
So the small countries exist and if they cannot rely on big countries for protection against nuclear states, then the only way forward for them is to have their own nuclear weapons. Do you like that world better? Does it lower or heighten the risk of unleashing the “end of humanity”?
I don't accept that dichotomy despite I see value in the argument. Since the invention of nuclear bombs, how many countries without nuclear weapons have lost their sovereignty of those surrounding Russia? Btw if it's either NATO or nuclear bombs, why didn't Finland get nuclear bombs in the last 60 years?
The collective West had way more resolve to respond to the further Russian expansion westward during the Cold War, you can say they were fools risking the end of humanity and maybe so, but it worked better for the stability in Europe than current deference to Russian interest and Americans openly pondering why they need NATO, because woke something something. It is weak, perceived as weak, and acted upon.
As for Finland during the Cold War, not sure if it had a pathway to NATO, same as modern Ukraine, or if the USSR would give it time to develop a bomb. They treaded carefully and forfeited a great deal of their independence.