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Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

spectrum.ieee.org

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Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#51

Post by throwaway60701 »

klodolph wrote: post #47
echelon wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Animals die for humans to live better lives all the time. There are protocols to minimize, but not eliminate, suffering. Animal testing is a greater good that helps us understand the diseases that plague us and look for cures. The goals of Neuralink are some of the most important being undertaken. It might seem abstract or wishful to some, but should they succeed we will have a plausible way to escape our mortality.…

Neuralink’s goals aren’t sufficient justification here, the question is about whether the actual research done by Neuralink can plausibly produce outcomes that benefit us, and whether the subjects are suffering needlessly. If you try to rush research, you don’t necessarily get the same research but faster, you might just get bad research instead.

Why is eating steak a sufficient reason but developing such life-changing technology is not?

We already know that BCIs work and bring enormous benefits to people with epilepsy, ADHD, etc. There's no question about that. The only problem is, and that's what Neuralink aims to solve, that it's a very invasive procedure, so it's not being done often. But we know it works.

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#52

Post by throwaway60701 »

florbnit wrote: post #41
transitivebs wrote: post #2

The example they gave of another company getting IDE Approval (Synchron) makes it seem possible, but I don't know how much of this is just general governmental inefficiencies and some level of systemic bias against Elon (stemming from big oil & auto). Or is the startup mentality of move fast and break things just not as applicable in this domain?

> general governmental inefficiencies and some level of systemic bias against Imagine trying to get government permission to drive a car, but you don’t want to talk to anyone who has ever driven a car, or engage with the “overly burocratic” process for getting a drivers license. You might end up feeling like the system is biased against you, but it should be obvious that you are just being intentionally difficult at…

What are you talking about? They have professionals working on this. Look at LinkedIn.

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#53

Post by leobg »

crabkin wrote: post #39
leobg wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because he thinks death is a useful thing, an enabler of change and adaptation. “People don’t change their minds. They just die.“ He explicitly said that he doesn’t want to live forever. Very different from other Silicon Valley rich kids. Humble, actually. Remember Kurzweil? Called Steve Jobs’ commencement speech about death being nature’s change agent a “deathist statement”.

As Socrates said, why be so afraid of death? Maybe it's the best thing that could ever happen to you.

Elon: “But I’m not afraid of dying. I think it will come as a relief.”

https://youtu.be/2WX_mgnAFA0&t=26m58s

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#54

Post by extheat »

watwut wrote: post #48
extheat wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He takes questions at Tesla earnings calls that other CEOs would delegate to lower level executives, and can talk about rocket science when prompted (see Tim Dodd's videos). That's not to say he's an expert on everything, one thing to note is he's also been working at those companies since the start. In my view, a big part of why his companies are successful is he actually does understand the product portfolio to a g…

Every single time he talked about something I understand, it was good sounding bs. He is good at pop science talk and at impressing people. But he is neither engineer nor scientist. Not even close. > He takes questions at Tesla earnings calls that other CEOs would delegate to lower level executives He can lie better and he is controlling micromanager.

We can agree to disagree, then. I’m interested to hear who you think does it better than Musk? So far, it seems he’s doing something right.

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#56

Post by hprotagonist »

extheat wrote: post #54
watwut wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single time he talked about something I understand, it was good sounding bs. He is good at pop science talk and at impressing people. But he is neither engineer nor scientist. Not even close. > He takes questions at Tesla earnings calls that other CEOs would delegate to lower level executives He can lie better and he is controlling micromanager.

We can agree to disagree, then. I’m interested to hear who you think does it better than Musk? So far, it seems he’s doing something right.

Tim Cook has certainly not taken 22Bn off the top of his legally compelled purchase lately.

(i’m very much not holding my breath for the vr/ar goggle thing, though)

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#57

Post by florbnit »

throwaway60701 wrote: post #52
florbnit wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> general governmental inefficiencies and some level of systemic bias against Imagine trying to get government permission to drive a car, but you don’t want to talk to anyone who has ever driven a car, or engage with the “overly burocratic” process for getting a drivers license. You might end up feeling like the system is biased against you, but it should be obvious that you are just being intentionally difficult at…

What are you talking about? They have professionals working on this. Look at LinkedIn.

Professionels in the actual field of conducting animal trials and getting medical devices through FDA approval. No one who has ever worked even just as a week as an intern in the field would ever have the blatant disregard for proper procedures they had. It’s just as insane as if Elon had said “just put a dozen or so untested self driving cars in the city center and see if they crash”. Animal testing isn’t something where you go “Oh it’s only an animal so we don’t give a fuck how we treat it”, there are very high bars that you need to stick to. People know that if they work in the field, which is why you need professionals and not just biohackers who don’t care about any established processes and just want to skip them in the spirit of “the ends justify the many animals we carelessly brutalized without any care taken to avoid it”

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#58

Post by klodolph »

throwaway60701 wrote: post #51
klodolph wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neuralink’s goals aren’t sufficient justification here, the question is about whether the actual research done by Neuralink can plausibly produce outcomes that benefit us, and whether the subjects are suffering needlessly. If you try to rush research, you don’t necessarily get the same research but faster, you might just get bad research instead.

Why is eating steak a sufficient reason but developing such life-changing technology is not? We already know that BCIs work and bring enormous benefits to people with epilepsy, ADHD, etc. There's no question about that. The only problem is, and that's what Neuralink aims to solve, that it's a very invasive procedure, so it's not being done often. But we know it works.

Eating a steak is not a good reason to cause unnecessary suffering. I don’t know what kind of argument you were hoping to make, but comparing one cruel thing with another is not insightful or useful. Industrial livestock production is inhumane and this is unnecessary; it can be fixed but there is not enough political will.

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#59

Post by throwaway60701 »

florbnit wrote: post #57
throwaway60701 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are you talking about? They have professionals working on this. Look at LinkedIn.

Professionels in the actual field of conducting animal trials and getting medical devices through FDA approval. No one who has ever worked even just as a week as an intern in the field would ever have the blatant disregard for proper procedures they had. It’s just as insane as if Elon had said “just put a dozen or so untested self driving cars in the city center and see if they crash”. Animal testing isn’t something…

Did you actually look? I am pretty sure they have experts in this field.

Re: Neuralink’s FDA troubles are just the beginning

#60

Post by throwaway60701 »

klodolph wrote: post #58
throwaway60701 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is eating steak a sufficient reason but developing such life-changing technology is not? We already know that BCIs work and bring enormous benefits to people with epilepsy, ADHD, etc. There's no question about that. The only problem is, and that's what Neuralink aims to solve, that it's a very invasive procedure, so it's not being done often. But we know it works.

Eating a steak is not a good reason to cause unnecessary suffering. I don’t know what kind of argument you were hoping to make, but comparing one cruel thing with another is not insightful or useful. Industrial livestock production is inhumane and this is unnecessary; it can be fixed but there is not enough political will.

So you're expecting them not to do anything whatsoever with animals, because you define anything done with them as cruelty? I disagree completely. Of course there shouldn't be any unnecessary suffering and definitely zero cruelty, but animal testing - as well as animal eating - is fine with me and many more people.

It can be "fixed" but almost nobody wants that "fix". Politicians are here to enact the will of the people. That's democracy. I don't think it's nice to talk about your differing political opinions as a "fix". This is not something that's broken, we want it this way - we wouldn't have spend so much time making regulations about it if we didn't.

If you find developing technologies that could fix epilepsy and ADHD (and potentially many more neurological issues) as well as help locked-in people communicate as unnecessary, I really don't know what to tell you...

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