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For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#111

Post by staunton »

anovikov wrote: post #26
adrianN wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A crazy rate" that is unfortunately still much too slow to limit warming to 2° or below.

Forget global warming. Of course it will not be stopped. All fossil fuels will be burnt till full exhaustion of reserves, until the remainder is completely uneconomical to extract. But then the nations that were the last to start switching will find their economies too inefficient and expensive to run with the fossil fuels while everyone else is using much cheaper renewables, and will probably no longer have money fo…

> Of course it will not be stopped

One way or another, it will definitely be stopped. At some point, civilization collapse would end the burning of fossil fuels at scale. The question is at what point it will stop and whether any tipping points are passed which accelerate the process out of control.

It's far from obvious that all efforts to limit carbon emissions will fail and to say otherwise is deeply cynical. Measures are being taken already. They are not enough to reach the claimed goals and the claimed goals will probably not be reached, but that's very different from saying warming will not be stopped at all, let alone "of course". More measures will follow once the adverse effects get worse in industrialized countries (e.g. deaths and economic damage due to changing climate and weather events).

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#112

Post by throwaway2037 »

thehappypm wrote: post #54
tmountain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have solar on my roof, but I had to negotiate a net metering agreement with my utility company. I have friends saying the same utility company is now pushing back on new agreements. It seems that stupid issues will need to be resolved before solar hits a critical mass. That said, batteries help.

Net metering is a bad deal for utilities, though. The “delivery” part of the cost of electricity is more than half; it accounts for the maintenance of the grid etc. People dumping energy into the grid doesn’t lower that cost.

Thank you for saying this out loud. Let me preface by saying that I am not a shill for big electricity companies. The cost of electricity, including green energy, and "net metering" needs to including the cost of transfer -- basically "big wires". Most people are delusional about the cost of transfer. One idea: Force generation and electricity transfer to be separate companies. Today, they are frequently a single company. This might help to create more realistic "net metering" pricing. Also, it might help to have some gov't rules for "net metering" pricing contracts.

Edit

So typical here: Your comment is being downvoted. It still stands an important point to consider.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#113

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #105
revertmean wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also worth noting that dams aren't just built for electricity. They're also built to control flooding and to control water supply. I'm not saying that's the case in Laos, but it does happen. People can live without electricity, but it's difficult to live without water.

I cringe each time that I hear a foreigner complain about China's Three Gorges Dam as an "environmental damage". The number of people who have died from floods on those rivers in the last 2000 years in mind-boggling. Yes, it generates a lot of electricity, but it is dual purpose to also control flooding. People can live without electricity, but it's difficult to live without water. This part is also interesting. Whil…

> While traveling in developing countries in East/South/Southeast Asia, the driest places and [sic] always the poorest

s:East/South/Southeast Asia:the United States:

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#114

Post by throwaway2037 »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #46
jillesvangurp wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but is that slowing down installations or just setting us up for a correction some time in the future when people install solar anyway? It seems to me that the market for rooftop solar is in any case supply constrained, not demand constrained. And I can't imagine this being very popular with homeowners or the politicians that represent them, regardless of their political color. So, there might be some backlash…

Correct. Legislation to disincentive rooftop solar works until battery economics improve sufficiently, at which point the install velocity accelerates because you can sidestep unfavorable net metering or time of day pricing. You’ll then consume your own solar during production, consume it from batteries when not producing, and relying on the grid for shortfall. The next fight will be the legal ability to disconnect f…

The future of some electrity giants is "peaking" (cloudy / windless days and nights) and electricty transfer. They need to adjust for the future, instead of cry like big babies.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#115

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

travisporter wrote: post #58
tmountain wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have solar on my roof, but I had to negotiate a net metering agreement with my utility company. I have friends saying the same utility company is now pushing back on new agreements. It seems that stupid issues will need to be resolved before solar hits a critical mass. That said, batteries help.

I live in the southeast and was quoted 35k for a 7kw Solar and 36k for two power walls. With tax credits,~50k

Just as a comparison, I did my own 6.7kWh ground mount array, so I can tell you that the materials costs (to a homeowner) for that were about US$13k. That was in 2020 - not sure how those costs have moved since then, but a significant part of the cost you're being quoted is labor.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#116

Post by nroets »

photochemsyn wrote: post #106

This would have happened a bit earlier if the most efficient and long-lasting solar panels, monocrystalline silicon, had been developed by US manufacturers instead of by Chinese ones. All the tariffs applied by state and federal regulators on the import of these panels have been about slowing the rate of solar PV production in the USA on behalf of the fossil fuel and investor-owned utility sectors. https://www.pv-mag…

Why should the US try to lead solar panel technology ? China has many talented engineers and plenty of venture capital. I'd prefer them to invest it in solar panel manufacturing and power electronics rather than social media, ai or Telco technology.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#117

Post by throwaway2037 »

martyvis wrote: post #17
verisimi wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? Solar gives lots of electricity in the summer. But you have light and warmth then. In the winter when you need the electricity, you get maybe 1/10 of whatever the solar array is capable of. Wind is not generally viable, except in very windy locations. Biogas (eg anaerobic digestors) seems much more possible - but even these need warmth to run well - so aren't as good in the winter. And when you think that yes…

It seems you are basing your thoughts just anecdotally. For instance, I'm sure "winter" in USA doesn't mean 6 months of snow and cloud. I'm sure in some areas winter actually is probably better. And sure wind isn't good energy in all locations - but in areas where it is you can probably harness it at quite high density. I'm in Australia and was just looking at this research here looking at cost effectiveness. It seem…

Ironic about winter, right? In some places in the world, there is more sunshine and less clouds during winter. Nice example: Tokyo (Japan) metropolis. It is typically cloudy and less sunny during summer months and far more sunny during winter months. That said, you will probably needs panels that can adjust tilt by season for maximum energy production.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#118

Post by xorcist »

looping__lui wrote: post #59
revertmean wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So Germany, a country that is well behind other European countries on renewables, had an over-dependence on Russian gas and was forced to reopen some coal plants when the price spiked. And you came to the conclusion that this was somehow a fault with renewables? How does that make sense to you?

Because renewables (which I am personally fond of; PV on my roof) cannot cover Germany’s electricity needs/baseload but only supplement it. Driven by an ideological agenda of Ms Merkel and the green party, they shut down nuclear power plants (needed to cover our base load in chemical/manufacturing/whatnot) and replaced it with gas from Russia (don’t ask me why). Now that Russian gas isn’t exactly on the table anymore…

Germany already had Russian gas, by pipeline, the cheapest fossil gas with the cheapest delivery method. Plans were already in place for another pipeline with twice the capacity.

If this choice was actually made to please the greens, as the theory goes, that would have been a first for Germany, a country built on its close ties between industry and government. Not to mention that the greens aren't usually fond of burning fossil fuel.

Occam's razor should suffice to understand the political process that went down here.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#119

Post by kragen »

acidburnNSA wrote: post #110

This would be better news if coal wasn't also being replaced by new fossil gas plants like crazy. If you look at coal vs fossil gas in the US it's a lot more depressing. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48896 The fraction of energy that comes from low carbon sources is what matters.

i have the impression that gas produces something like 40 percent less co₂ per joule than coal?

in some sense that's 'low carbon'

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#120

Post by acidburnNSA »

kragen wrote: post #119
acidburnNSA wrote: post #110

This would be better news if coal wasn't also being replaced by new fossil gas plants like crazy. If you look at coal vs fossil gas in the US it's a lot more depressing. https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48896 The fraction of energy that comes from low carbon sources is what matters.

i have the impression that gas produces something like 40 percent less co₂ per joule than coal? in some sense that's 'low carbon'

On paper that is sometimes true, and gas companies try to lean in hard on that. Gas can do 480 gCO2/kWh vs. coal's 800+. But when you include wellhead and pipeline losses of methane they end up looking almost exactly equal, according to many studies. So it's not really progress. Also, half the CO2 of coal is nowhere even close to acceptable. We need things that do about 1/20th the carbon of coal or less, so wind, solar, nuclear, hydro, geothermal, tidal only. Gas is out.
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