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For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

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Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#101

Post by photochemsyn »

jokoon wrote: post #2

It doesn't really matter if renewable generated more energy than coal for 1 day. What matters is annual generation. Renewables generates 5 times less than coal annually and still peak for a short period of time, so this is not a big progress. Wind turbines can have big energy peaks when it's very windy, but there is no cheap way to store that energy for a long period of time, WHICH IS WHY NUCLEAR IS THE GREENEST BASE…

The division of electricity production into baseload, load-following and peaker categories is just a historical anachronism.

Coal and nuclear plants have poor abilities to ramp power production up and down in response to fluctuating demand, so they were called 'baseload'. Various versions of natural gas power plants could respond more rapidly, so they were typically placed in the other other two categories.

This is all irrelevant if you have distributed wind/solar production coupled to efficient storage systems that manage the distribution using technology that doesn't have those limitations. Practically that means short term storage of power in batteries (daily), long-term storage in synthetic fuels (seasonal).

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#102

Post by ch4s3 »

voisin wrote: post #77
travisporter wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in the southeast and was quoted 35k for a 7kw Solar and 36k for two power walls. With tax credits,~50k

I’m in BC, Canada and just pulled the trigger on 14.56 kw if ground mount for $42k CAD, tax included. Wondering why Solar is so much more expensive (ignoring the batteries) in your area? I’d think it would be a lot cheaper with more competition. Going with Longi bifacial panels - does the US restrict or add huge duties on Chinese panels?

Tariffs are a big part, but labor is a significant factor as well.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#103

Post by tjbiddle »

timwaagh wrote: post #75
tjbiddle wrote: post #57

My comment isn't directly related to the OP, but figured it'd be an interesting insight to share as it's very recent for me. Just finished a motorbike trip in Laos. Fun fact, their largest export is electricity. Would've never guessed that, right? 90% of the electricity they generate is exported to neighboring countries - mostly Thailand. 80% is renewable - Go Laos! But wait, it may be renewable... but turns out the…

You think the energy transition can be achieved without harming people? Yes if you are a river fisherman you do not live in the right century. Nor do people living in mountain villages. There are those who will get cancer from working in a nuclear fuel reprocessing plant. Still it's not going to be that bad because the pollution from fossil fuel electricity generation is also causing a lot of disease and killing a lo…

> Yes if you are a river fisherman you do not live in the right century. Nor do people living in mountain villages.

Tell me you're in a privileged western country without telling me.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#104

Post by throwaway2037 »

tjbiddle wrote: post #57

My comment isn't directly related to the OP, but figured it'd be an interesting insight to share as it's very recent for me. Just finished a motorbike trip in Laos. Fun fact, their largest export is electricity. Would've never guessed that, right? 90% of the electricity they generate is exported to neighboring countries - mostly Thailand. 80% is renewable - Go Laos! But wait, it may be renewable... but turns out the…

I don't think it is helpful to celebrate countries that won the "geography birth lottery" and have huge rivers that are easy to dam. See: Laos, Paraguay, Norway, Austria, etc. Nothing is "amazing" that they are mostly green energy.

Also, for other readers, Laos is a repressive "communist" dictatorship. It is no surprise that the gov't welcomed Belt & Road programme by China (with high interest loans!) to build a giant dam that enriched few at the expense of many. This is green washing at its very best.

The future of green energy is mostly about solar and wind. Yes, there are some places with easy-to-dam rivers remaining (sub-Saharan Africa), but they are few and far between.

It is still crazy to me that North Africa is not covered in solar panels that export to Europe. Same for Australia, South Africa, and many Gulf countries. Sunshine and wind is the "new oil" of the 21st Century. They can export to neighboring countries or produce green hydrogen.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#105

Post by throwaway2037 »

revertmean wrote: post #67
tjbiddle wrote: post #57

My comment isn't directly related to the OP, but figured it'd be an interesting insight to share as it's very recent for me. Just finished a motorbike trip in Laos. Fun fact, their largest export is electricity. Would've never guessed that, right? 90% of the electricity they generate is exported to neighboring countries - mostly Thailand. 80% is renewable - Go Laos! But wait, it may be renewable... but turns out the…

It's also worth noting that dams aren't just built for electricity. They're also built to control flooding and to control water supply. I'm not saying that's the case in Laos, but it does happen. People can live without electricity, but it's difficult to live without water.

I cringe each time that I hear a foreigner complain about China's Three Gorges Dam as an "environmental damage". The number of people who have died from floods on those rivers in the last 2000 years in mind-boggling. Yes, it generates a lot of electricity, but it is dual purpose to also control flooding.

    People can live without electricity, but it's difficult to live without water.
This part is also interesting. While traveling in developing countries in East/South/Southeast Asia, the driest places and always the poorest. The only way to overcome is irrigation. The wealthiest places find a way to move water from wet lands to dry lands.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#106

Post by photochemsyn »

This would have happened a bit earlier if the most efficient and long-lasting solar panels, monocrystalline silicon, had been developed by US manufacturers instead of by Chinese ones. All the tariffs applied by state and federal regulators on the import of these panels have been about slowing the rate of solar PV production in the USA on behalf of the fossil fuel and investor-owned utility sectors.

https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/04/14/the-weekend-read-chin...

Claims that these tariffs have some human rights motivations are nonsensical, would the US block imports of Saudi oil over human rights abuses there? Of course not - but silicon solar panels, oh my!

https://www.reuters.com/world/china/exclusive-us-blocks-more...

It's no surprise that the pushback by politicians owned by investors in fossil fuels and utilities has been so intense - energy is one of the most lucrative investments, and it's rather difficult to control and meter the flow of sunlight to homes, in comparison to natural gas or crude oil.

Notably, the USA has no R & D programs or subsidy programs like the CHIPS act (for semiconductors for computation, not for power production) aimed at rapidly expanding monocrystalline silicon production.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#107

Post by JoeAltmaier »

Very encouraging!

Including hydro in the renewables column made the math work. Makes it seem like we've made more progress than perhaps we have. Hydro and wind are the biggest chunks in their pie chart. And much of hydro is decades, if not centuries old infrastructure.

But still! Lots of progress.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#108

Post by dukeyukey »

verisimi wrote: post #10
adrianN wrote: post #7

Nice. The economics of renewables are really hard to beat. I hope we speed up the construction speed and at the same time electrify more sectors.

Really? Solar gives lots of electricity in the summer. But you have light and warmth then. In the winter when you need the electricity, you get maybe 1/10 of whatever the solar array is capable of. Wind is not generally viable, except in very windy locations. Biogas (eg anaerobic digestors) seems much more possible - but even these need warmth to run well - so aren't as good in the winter. And when you think that yes…

Ironically most renewables are far more distributed and local than something like gas plants. Instead of maintaining continent-spanning supply chains you can just put your panels up and leave them for a decade or two.

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#109

Post by locallost »

soitgoes511 wrote: post #31
anovikov wrote: post #19

It's so funny to read discussions of "whether or not renewables are viable for replacement of all or most of electricity needs in the U.S.". Here in Europe, we have it figured many years ago and are replacing fossil-fueled generation at a crazy rate, will probably push it to a niche use (gas peakers to fill void when there's neither sun or wind and before enough electrolyzers are put online), in less than 10 years.

Is this why we were having energy shortages during the winter time and there was a rush to get the nuclear reactors back online in France ? I don't consider that having, "it figured out". If you want to discuss prices.. my place of employment is paying millions more euro this year than last. The increase in energy cost is also leading to increase in water costs.. I could go on, but you get the point.

That's some rewriting of history considering it's less than a year old. The scramble to get France's nuclear plants back online was because they completely failed in the first place, and at a critical time. Half of the fleet was offline most of the year, and half of those were completely unplanned and difficult to fix [1]. And it's still happening [2]. This failure was one of the biggest reasons for the electricity crunch and high prices - the expected output of France was missing and they themselves became net importers. [3]

Thank God the reliable renewables delivered.

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/15/business/nuclear-power-fr... [2] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/frances-nuclear-watc... [3] https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/sweden-tops-france-e...

Re: For the first time, renewable energy generation beat out coal in the US

#110

Post by acidburnNSA »

This would be better news if coal wasn't also being replaced by new fossil gas plants like crazy. If you look at coal vs fossil gas in the US it's a lot more depressing.

https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=48896

The fraction of energy that comes from low carbon sources is what matters.

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