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These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

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Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#91

Post by Thiez »

nec4b wrote: post #84
cornholio wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all arable land of Netherlands would be covered in datacenters, they would draw more energy than the entire world production, and would skyrocket the NL GDP simply from the services required, such as building, installation, guarding, decommissioning and recycling, powering them etc. The capital density per square foot is 4 to 5 times orders of magnitude higher than agriculture, to suggest the two compete for land…

Where and how do you get your food?

The Netherlands are the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. They can severely reduce farming without endangering domestic food supplies.

Of course these products that are consumed would have to be produced somewhere else, but since the pollution (nitrogen) is a local problem, this would still be a net win, and not just moving the problem around.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#92

Post by Thiez »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #87
shjake wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t most other places in Europe be much more suitable though just because of lower population density (and energy prices in some cases)?

I meant that agriculture in our fertile delta is way more efficient than trying to do the same in other countries with less suitable areas.

So we're sacrificing the Dutch nature out of altruistic motives? And the rest of the Dutch people don't get a say about the biodiversity in their country, the farmers should make this noble sacrifice on their behalf, for the good of the world? Or is it perhaps just a transparent excuse to keep polluting until only grass, stinging nettles, and blackberries remain?

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#93

Post by Thiez »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #88
Why_O_My wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this meat is still used ofcourse. But with a country as small as ours, there simply are better uses of the space for our country and people.

There is no space. The land belongs to the farmers. It’s not up to you to decide what should be done with it.

Perhaps we can stop their subsidies and see if they're suddenly willing to sell voluntarily.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#94

Post by Thiez »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #78
twixfel wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not stupid, they're literally exporting it. And I have to add, it's a whole new level of Americentrism that I have never seen before to define the word "export" in terms of the distances between US states.

It is stupid, because it just makes sense to have agriculture in a fertile area like the river delta in NL. And it doesn’t make sense to focus on protecting the very species that are not able to flourish without human intervention. So, focus on protecting species that do well in nitrogen poor areas in the areas that are actually nitrogen poor. If we move production around to average everything out we’ll end up with a…

You're turning things around. These species are suffering because of human nitrogen pollution. Where does all the excess nitrogen come from that is preventing these species from flourishing? Oh hey, turns out it's mostly agriculture.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#95

Post by mozball »

Asking out of ignorance: Why build a data center in prime/contested real estate instead of some desolate, crumbling town in eastern europe (within the EU)? Could benefit from cold climate, cheap labour and real-estate; might even be green (if powered by soviet-era nuclear plant)

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#96

Post by jillesvangurp »

holoduke wrote: post #4

If you ask yourself what the possible benefits are for dutch people. Absolutely nothing. Companies like Microsoft have complex tax constructions so not a single cent ends up in the dutch economy. Next. These datacenters are huge energy consumers in an already scarse market. Drives prices up. Nobody wants to live close to these ugly heavily guarded places. At the same time the Netherlands faces a housing crisis often…

It's not nothing. Building new data centers requires investment, brings employment, etc. Objectively, large companies investing many billions to open large data centers in mostly rural areas is pretty nice overall. There are some issues with energy supply being gobbled up by these companies. But arguably even that is pretty nice since it just results in huge investments in renewable energy production, which is good for the economy.

The Netherlands has a self inflicted nitrogen crisis mainly due to intensive farming. Despite being a small country, it's one of the largest food exporters in the world. E.g. it is the world's leading exporter of tomatoes. But most of those are grown in green houses. The real problem is cattle. Cows, chickens, & pigs. Intensive cattle farming is causing loads of issues with manure and the go to solution is just fertilizing grass fields, which results in a lot of emissions and poisons the water and atmosphere. To the point where it's having health impacts. The only way out is to downsize that sector. Which is of course unpopular with farmers.

EU regulations related to nitrogen emissions are causing a need to do something about emissions. One of the results of this has been to reduce speeds on highways to 100km/h (ICE cars emit lots of nitrogen). This was done by a right leaning conservative government lead by a party that actually bumped the speed limit to 130km/h a few years before that. Additionally, until they get emissions down, a lot of construction projects along highways are blocked. And of course the government is under a lot of pressure to do something about the biggest emitters next: farmers.

So, farmers don't like this and recent election rounds resulted in a victory for a new pro-farmer party. Farmers have been protesting regularly for years and of course they are not too excited about MS and others converting their farm land into data centers while finding a way around the rules against new construction. That's not because they hate MS but because they are against the whole system of rules that is putting them out of business while companies like MS get to profit and the same government that's coming after them looks the other way.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#97

Post by nec4b »

Thiez wrote: post #91
nec4b wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where and how do you get your food?

The Netherlands are the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world. They can severely reduce farming without endangering domestic food supplies. Of course these products that are consumed would have to be produced somewhere else, but since the pollution (nitrogen) is a local problem, this would still be a net win, and not just moving the problem around.

>>The Netherlands are the second largest exporter of agricultural products in the world.

Amazing! Good for them. One would think such agricultural and engineering powerhouse could solve the nitrogen problem with technology and not resort to destroying one of it's most innovative industries.

>>They can severely reduce farming without endangering domestic food supplies.

That's probably what the Germans thought when they closed their nuclear power plants. And then the invasion of Ukraine happened.

>>Of course these products that are consumed would have to be produced somewhere else, but since the pollution (nitrogen) is a local problem, this would still be a net win, and not just moving the problem around.

TIL: polluting some other third world country, with severe lack of environment standards and inefficient agriculture is called a net win.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#98

Post by drewcoo »

spiderfarmer wrote: post #39
bojan wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in the Netherlands, where urbanization is actually losing from agriculture. We have a structural housing shortage while 54% of this tiny land's surface is used for agriculture, and then mostly for those disastrous monocultures. Dutch farmers are probably the most privileged group in the country and they are fighting tooth and nail to preserve that status no matter the cost. Anything they say or complain about…

It sounds so arrogant to say farmers are privileged, while these families have worked for generations to build these farms. There are even people advocating to take the farms from them, if necessary by force. I don’t blame the farmers if they want to hold on to every inch, and to fight for every right they still have.

Inheriting a farm is privilege.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#99

Post by waihtis »

tfourb wrote: post #49
sfvisser wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I own several buildings > expense in the low five figures > So what are people complaining about, exactly? This is an incredible take. Many people don’t have the luxury to just spend five figures on a mandatory house renovation.

Let me get this straight: - You own an asset worth 200,000-300,000 Euros - The required investment, which can be spread over up to ten years, is 20,000-30,000 Euros - You would have to make parts of this investment anyway, because your windows are leaky and your radiators are breaking - You will recoup the costs over 5-10 years because you use less energy - 25-50% of this investment will be covered by subsidies, the…

For us in FIN, the bulk majority that will get hit worst are low-income rural households that aren't nearly worth 200,000k. In fact it will probably result in a lot of abandoned homes as it isn't worth investing 20k euros to renovate a 60-80k house, not that anyone is lending that money to these homes anyway.

You have perfectly demonstrated how idiotic these blanket EU-level policies are as they take no consideration of local situations.

Re: These Angry Dutch Farmers Really Hate Microsoft

#100

Post by tfourb »

waihtis wrote: post #99
tfourb wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me get this straight: - You own an asset worth 200,000-300,000 Euros - The required investment, which can be spread over up to ten years, is 20,000-30,000 Euros - You would have to make parts of this investment anyway, because your windows are leaky and your radiators are breaking - You will recoup the costs over 5-10 years because you use less energy - 25-50% of this investment will be covered by subsidies, the…

For us in FIN, the bulk majority that will get hit worst are low-income rural households that aren't nearly worth 200,000k. In fact it will probably result in a lot of abandoned homes as it isn't worth investing 20k euros to renovate a 60-80k house, not that anyone is lending that money to these homes anyway. You have perfectly demonstrated how idiotic these blanket EU-level policies are as they take no consideration…

As I wrote above, the proposed (!) regulation would be based on the national housing stock. So if you are in Finnland, the energy efficiency of your house would be compared to other finish houses, not a house in Germany. Which is the definition of "considering local situations".

Also, a quick check reveals that only about 14% of the Finish population lives in rural areas [1]. Even if every single one of those persons is a house owner and poor (unlikely, as those categories are to a certain extend mutually exclusive), it would be quite feasible for the Finish government to heavily subsidize the renovation of the entirety of the rural housing stock. Nothing in the proposed regulation would keep national governments from using policy making to implement the required goals in a socially acceptable way.

Also, what do you propose would be the alternative? Improving the energy efficiency of the housing stock is in most countries among the most efficient ways to conserve energy. Other approaches to conserve energy or produce the required energy in a sustainable way cost considerably more per kw/h than bringing a 50 year old house to a modern energy standard. And of course given the prevalence of oil and natural gas based heating systems in old houses, you actually have to invest in a new heating source to switch away from CO2-emitting energy sources, anyway.

EDIT: quick back of the envelope math suggests that it would cost the finish government 5% of the current annual budget for each of the coming ten years to invest 20.000 Euros into each of the approximately 250.000 rural houses (assuming an average occupancy of 3 people per house). Not a bad investment considering that it would be made up in a few years through energy savings.

[1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.RUR.TOTL.ZS?location...

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