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Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

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Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#101

Post by schwartzworld »

yieldcrv wrote: post #96
schwartzworld wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe if the article said other plants could hear or react to the screams. What good would such a warning do for plants who cannot flee or fight back?

That article didn’t, there are others that suggest there are signals to stressors that nearby plants react to. Even so, I can’t fly away from a tiger or bear. That analogy coupled with seeing that everything that can move, tries to move, makes me think plants would if they could. Sea anemones are very rudimentary and blind systems, and even they uproot themselves and “swim” away in the sloppiest way imaginable when a…

You can't fly away from a tiger or a bear, but a human screaming as they are eaten by that one night inspire you to run or hide from something you see as a predator. Your feet are not literally rooted in the ground. Also you have ears capable of hearing the noise created by another human.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#102

Post by no_wizard »

stuaxo wrote: post #67
afarviral wrote: post #12

My very unscientific take is the noises are the result of a mundane mechanical process that is a consequence of the plant not having enough water or loss of water due to cutting, which leads to some cavitation bubbles forming. So it may only be as interesting as saying that your water starts "screaming" when it is being boiled.

Would love the new age types to get onto the idea that water screams.

There's already a bunch of new age types getting into the idea that water holds "emotional" values. IE, they claim that if you scream and have negative conversations at a glass of water, you can analyze the water and see changes to it that are negative, and doing the inverse (happy, positive conversations) makes the water "happier" and has positive changes.

I remember hearing this at a seminar of new age things (I was doing an investigative thing at the time, which is why I was there)

So they already are!

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#103

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #98
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that line of thinking. But I still fail at giving a good explanation of that concept. Maybe it's intuitive for me due to having learned about cellular automata during my youth. I know I'm entering esoteric and new age territory but something tells me this can even be applied to phenomena like quantum entanglement. My idea is that if there is an information receivable and possibly even emittable by a biological…

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

[deleted]

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#104

Post by geoelectric »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #98
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that line of thinking. But I still fail at giving a good explanation of that concept. Maybe it's intuitive for me due to having learned about cellular automata during my youth. I know I'm entering esoteric and new age territory but something tells me this can even be applied to phenomena like quantum entanglement. My idea is that if there is an information receivable and possibly even emittable by a biological…

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

Only applies to genetic traits though. If psychopathy, for example, turned out to be epigenetic, environmental, or entirely psychological, it would potentially defy that pattern.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#105

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #98
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that line of thinking. But I still fail at giving a good explanation of that concept. Maybe it's intuitive for me due to having learned about cellular automata during my youth. I know I'm entering esoteric and new age territory but something tells me this can even be applied to phenomena like quantum entanglement. My idea is that if there is an information receivable and possibly even emittable by a biological…

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

[deleted]

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#106

Post by geoelectric »

bmitc wrote: post #97
eckza wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you cut off a human's appendage, the screaming comes from a voice. The voice comes from a sort of... consciousness. Which while we haven't exactly nailed down what makes one up, we are reasonably certain that it involves a nervous system .

Plants communicate distress using their own kind of nervous system: Model mustard plant uses the same signals as animals to relay distress https://www.science.org/content/article/plants-communicate-d...

Making this absurd for a sec to make my point, I think they’re just saying if the physical sound of an arm being cut off just happened to mimic a human voice crying out, that wouldn’t make it a sign of consciousness like an actual “Ow!” from the speech center.

There’s a difference between a creature’s higher level response to a stimulus and just stuff that happens as a direct physical consequence of the stimulus.

It’s the same deal as boiling live lobsters. They aren’t actually screaming, even if you would be. That’s steam escaping. What the plant sound actually is, no clue. But I think the lobster scenario is what was being suggested upthread.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#107

Post by evantbyrne »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #98
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that line of thinking. But I still fail at giving a good explanation of that concept. Maybe it's intuitive for me due to having learned about cellular automata during my youth. I know I'm entering esoteric and new age territory but something tells me this can even be applied to phenomena like quantum entanglement. My idea is that if there is an information receivable and possibly even emittable by a biological…

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

By a trait being "beneficial" you mean that it prolongs the existence of some gene specifically, right? My understanding of evolution is that traits aren't necessarily beneficial to those who posses it in the colloquial sense. For example, animals that perish due to reproduction.

Also, isn't saying a trait exists so it must be beneficial a bit of an over simplification? Couldn't a relatively useless trait hypothetically exist due to genes that are also related to some other relatively useful trait? It seems like a stretch to say any lasting trait must be beneficial, unless you can isolate it from other traits on the genetic level or otherwise through analysis. Traits can also cease being beneficial as we can see from the countless species that have gone extinct.

Sorry if this seems like I'm ranting, but I just need more convincing that this rule of thumb makes sense, and would appreciate being pointed in the right direction if I'm off-base.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#109

Post by Consultant32452 »

evantbyrne wrote: post #107
Consultant32452 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

By a trait being "beneficial" you mean that it prolongs the existence of some gene specifically, right? My understanding of evolution is that traits aren't necessarily beneficial to those who posses it in the colloquial sense. For example, animals that perish due to reproduction. Also, isn't saying a trait exists so it must be beneficial a bit of an over simplification? Couldn't a relatively useless trait hypothetica…

Yes, beneficial refers to those genes continuing on into the future.

The operative descriptive word describing those "useless traits" is cost. If nothing else, they have a cost of the energy and resources required to produce the relevant cells or whatever. Another organism that does not waste that energy and resources will out-compete the one building the useless trait. Natural selection will make it go away.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#110

Post by Consultant32452 »

geoelectric wrote: post #104
Consultant32452 wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The rule of thumb in evolutionary biology is if it has a cost and lasts through evolutionary time, it is beneficial. Because otherwise a similar organism that doesn't waste that time/energy on the useless thing/behavior will outcompete. Here's some odd and obvious examples. Religion has a cost (lots of resources and time are spent on them) and they have lasted through time, therefore it is evolutionarily beneficial.…

Only applies to genetic traits though. If psychopathy, for example, turned out to be epigenetic, environmental, or entirely psychological, it would potentially defy that pattern.

It doesn't only apply to genetic traits, it also applies to memes which also evolve and would cover your concerns.
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