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Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

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Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#61

Post by alwaysbeconsing »

canadiantim wrote: post #47
svara wrote: post #30

Informative here meaning that you can deduce something about a plant's condition from faint sounds emitted by it. It's not implying that the plants use those sounds for the purpose of transmitting information. From the article: "These results demonstrate the potential in studying plant bioacoustics, suggest that plant acoustic emissions may play an important role in ecology and evolution, and may have direct implicat…

If the signal is being sent, you can be pretty sure that due to the intrinsic efficiency-maximization that biological systems perform then most likely the mechanism for detecting and acting upon it has been evolved by other organisms, especially for something as fitness-critical as stress.

Not entirely. Efficiency maximization can also result in a state where a feature is interesting to us but neutral, or just not harmful enough to be worth the energy to change. Remember that the watchmaker is completely blind.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#62

Post by AlecSchueler »

kjkjadksj wrote: post #55
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think we’re all that murderous at all unless we’re subjected to acute, severe stresses and/or maladaptive processes (usually early in life). I genuinely care about the well being of other living things and would hate to be in a position where I felt murder was necessary. I know I’m not alone. Seeing how war affects soldiers, I suspect the experience of killing and witnessing death is typically very traumatic…

I think our current culture is biased to feel weird about killing. Historically, killing was often a form of entertainment for the public, and a matter of course for getting the nutrients for life.

In the past people weren't able to voice their concerns and demand better things. Violence as entertainment was used as a tool by the ruling classes as a way to enforce their power.

The effects of the trauma of violence are clear and well studied. Just because something happened in the past doesn't mean we can assume it had true support from the people who had no choice.

Maybe people in the future will say that the people today found it entertaining to pollute the world, while we know many of us find it upsetting and wish in vain for alternatives against the strong tide of the power system in place.

Another thing to consider is the old taboo around left handedness. As the taboo lifted the actually recorded rate of left handedness increased dramatically! Turns out social systems can lead to people acting in ways that are personally uncomfortable for them rather than going against the tide.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#63

Post by hombre_fatal »

mdp2021 wrote: post #29
Ekaros wrote: post #18

Does this throw out the whole moral panic about animal welfare? If plants suffer too, isn't it wrong to eat them as well? Or there should be real focus in humane treatment and harvesting them?

> panic None of those concerns are new. Jainism is at least three millennia old.

Moral conclusions I don’t agree with are panics.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#64

Post by calibas »

svara wrote: post #30

Informative here meaning that you can deduce something about a plant's condition from faint sounds emitted by it. It's not implying that the plants use those sounds for the purpose of transmitting information. From the article: "These results demonstrate the potential in studying plant bioacoustics, suggest that plant acoustic emissions may play an important role in ecology and evolution, and may have direct implicat…

They're saying it's in the realm of possibilities, plants *may* be communicating via sound, and this is in the context of a study that shows plants are making noises that can be used to convey information.

They're saying it merits further investigation, not presenting it as a hard fact. To claim that's "wild overselling" and that it doesn't belong in a "high impact" journal is wildly underselling the study. They make sure to use the word "may" in everything they suggest that's not directly backed up by the study.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#65

Post by hombre_fatal »

steponlego wrote: post #32

Vegans are going to have to re-evaluate their life choices. It might be much more cruel to harvest a field of soybeans than it is to kill a cow.

Cavitation in a plant doesn’t mean it’s having a subjective experience much less one that I should care about more than, say, the experience of a dog being stepped on.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#66

Post by haswell »

LegitShady wrote: post #59
canadiantim wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the signal is being sent, you can be pretty sure that due to the intrinsic efficiency-maximization that biological systems perform then most likely the mechanism for detecting and acting upon it has been evolved by other organisms, especially for something as fitness-critical as stress.

I'm not sure why you can assume that without any direct evidence.

Life is an infinite unfolding of undefinably rich and interconnected phenomena, and we only have labels for a small subset of phenomena.

As a thought experiment, reverse the question: how could we assume that there aren’t interconnected phenomena after discovering evidence that this phenomena exists?

Even if we never discover what those interconnections are or establish labels for them, interconnection/interdependence is the continuing unfolding of everything, and so I tend to think a more helpful default is to wonder what those interactions are instead of if they exist.

At a minimum, Newton’s 3rd law applies, and however subtle the effects, they are almost certainly there. Where or not they’re particularly interesting to us or “useful” to human inquiry is another question entirely.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#67

Post by stuaxo »

afarviral wrote: post #12

My very unscientific take is the noises are the result of a mundane mechanical process that is a consequence of the plant not having enough water or loss of water due to cutting, which leads to some cavitation bubbles forming. So it may only be as interesting as saying that your water starts "screaming" when it is being boiled.

Would love the new age types to get onto the idea that water screams.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#68

Post by pessimizer »

haswell wrote: post #66
LegitShady wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure why you can assume that without any direct evidence.

Life is an infinite unfolding of undefinably rich and interconnected phenomena, and we only have labels for a small subset of phenomena. As a thought experiment, reverse the question: how could we assume that there aren’t interconnected phenomena after discovering evidence that this phenomena exists? Even if we never discover what those interconnections are or establish labels for them, interconnection/interdependenc…

> As a thought experiment, reverse the question: how could we assume that there aren’t interconnected phenomena after discovering evidence that this phenomena exists?

The opposite of assuming a thing without direct evidence isn't to assume the negation of that thing without direct evidence. They're two examples of the same mistake.

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#69

Post by pessimizer »

krisoft wrote: post #40
Euphorbium wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you camp in spring near fast growing grasses or bushes, you can clearly hear them grow.

How do you know what you are hearing is them “growing” instead of wind rustling them or insects moving around?

It's not a guess. It's simply a fact that you can hear some fast-growing plants growing. No need to personally investigate unless you want to.

Rhubarb: https://soundcloud.com/rhubarb-rhubarb-rhubarb/a-mass-of-pop...

Bamboo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HkhBxBZELk

Corn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76xEkEXI2a4

Re: Sounds emitted by plants under stress are airborne and informative

#70

Post by anonymouskimmer »

philipov wrote: post #51
svara wrote: post #30

Informative here meaning that you can deduce something about a plant's condition from faint sounds emitted by it. It's not implying that the plants use those sounds for the purpose of transmitting information. From the article: "These results demonstrate the potential in studying plant bioacoustics, suggest that plant acoustic emissions may play an important role in ecology and evolution, and may have direct implicat…

If you break a branch, the sound of it breaking informs you that you have broken a branch.

It also informs other animals that a large creature may be passing by.
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