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The roots of Japan's Indian curry

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Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#21

Post by bakul »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #3

Interesting! I take issue with the common claim that 'curry' isn't a thing in a 'real' Indian restaurant. I did a quick survey online and could not find a single solitary Indian restaurant menu without curry on it. From the fanciest to the common takeout joint. There are even chains like 'Curry House'. Let's tone down the virtue signaling in food reviews. It's silly. There are 150 languages in India; there are as man…

Supposedly curry comes from the tamil word (transliterated as) "kaRi" which may be related to black pepper (native to India) to spice things up. In all Indian languages the color black has a very similar name (in Gujarati Kāḷī (feminine) or kāḷo (masculine) etc. -- also the goddess Kāli -- the one who is black or death!). More generally associated with something burnt (blackened). Anyway, a spicy sauce would be kaRi. In restaurants in South India you may find various dishes named curry (such as kozhi curry or kozhi kari). But when most everything is spicy, why even say that? Indians would rather know what is in a recipe than how it tastes! [Lot of speculation here: perhaps some knowledgeable Tamil will correct this without getting all upset!]

I should also point out "curry leaves" -- not sure if there is a connection with curry. They are not spicy but are put in many Indian dishes to give them a certain flavor.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#22

Post by dagmx »

throw0101c wrote: post #17

Tempura also has foreign origins: > Tempura (天ぷら or 天麩羅, tenpura, [tempɯɾa]) is a typical Japanese dish usually consisting of seafood, meat and vegetables that have been battered and deep fried. The dish was introduced by the Portuguese in Nagasaki through fritter-cooking techniques in the 16th century. The word tempura comes from the Latin word tempora, a term referring to times of fasting when the church dictated t…

A lot of Japanese dishes that are popular today have foreign origins.

Tempura, curry, ramen, and salmon for sushi.

It’s why I find it hilarious when some people obsess over the authenticity of Japanese food and deride fusion cuisine.

It (much like most great cuisines) is the result of intermixing and interpretations of dishes.

Many Indian dishes too wouldn’t have existed without foreign interaction. Potato dishes obviously (which are very prevalent) but even things like Butter chicken or many Mughal based dishes.

The origin of food is in many ways just as as interesting as the etymology of words.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#23

Post by dagmx »

bakul wrote: post #21
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #3

Interesting! I take issue with the common claim that 'curry' isn't a thing in a 'real' Indian restaurant. I did a quick survey online and could not find a single solitary Indian restaurant menu without curry on it. From the fanciest to the common takeout joint. There are even chains like 'Curry House'. Let's tone down the virtue signaling in food reviews. It's silly. There are 150 languages in India; there are as man…

Supposedly curry comes from the tamil word (transliterated as) "kaRi" which may be related to black pepper (native to India) to spice things up. In all Indian languages the color black has a very similar name (in Gujarati Kāḷī (feminine) or kāḷo (masculine) etc. -- also the goddess Kāli -- the one who is black or death!). More generally associated with something burnt (blackened). Anyway, a spicy sauce would be kaRi.…

To add to your point on curry leaves:

> Curry leaf” comes from the Tamil word “karu-vep-ilai” (‘black neem leaf’), leaves of the sweet neem plant Murraya koenigii

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#24

Post by sho »

brigandish wrote: post #20

> So if you are craving for spice in Japan, try one of the two thousand "Indian" restaurants and you will not be disappointed. Erm, if you've had a proper curry recently then you probably will be. Like everywhere else, foreign foods get tailored to their locality or they die. If you fancy a naan filled with sugar and some pretty bland dishes then try an "Indian" restaurant in Japan. Which should come as no surprise,…

> spicy foods here are a) not spicy

Ha. Can confirm. Lived there 2 years and while I love the food, as far as I can tell there is no food available anywhere in Japan, at all, that the average south east asian would recognise as even mildly spicy. And outside the home islands I have observed Japanese people reacting hilariously to the actually spicy local food. My favourite was a co-worker who literally collapsed to the floor in the foetal position moaning after eating a mala hotpot which was, at best, medium heat.

Love the people, love the country, but Golden Curry's bright warning red "EXTRA HOT" is not bloody hot at all.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#25

Post by bakul »

dagmx wrote: post #23
bakul wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Supposedly curry comes from the tamil word (transliterated as) "kaRi" which may be related to black pepper (native to India) to spice things up. In all Indian languages the color black has a very similar name (in Gujarati Kāḷī (feminine) or kāḷo (masculine) etc. -- also the goddess Kāli -- the one who is black or death!). More generally associated with something burnt (blackened). Anyway, a spicy sauce would be kaRi.…

To add to your point on curry leaves: > Curry leaf” comes from the Tamil word “karu-vep-ilai” (‘black neem leaf’), leaves of the sweet neem plant Murraya koenigii

Thanks! In Gujarati we call it "meettho limdo" or sweet neem. It is dark green but not black (except when left in the 'frig for a few days or on the plant when it is sick!).

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#26

Post by ipqk »

dagmx wrote: post #22
throw0101c wrote: post #17

Tempura also has foreign origins: > Tempura (天ぷら or 天麩羅, tenpura, [tempɯɾa]) is a typical Japanese dish usually consisting of seafood, meat and vegetables that have been battered and deep fried. The dish was introduced by the Portuguese in Nagasaki through fritter-cooking techniques in the 16th century. The word tempura comes from the Latin word tempora, a term referring to times of fasting when the church dictated t…

A lot of Japanese dishes that are popular today have foreign origins. Tempura, curry, ramen, and salmon for sushi. It’s why I find it hilarious when some people obsess over the authenticity of Japanese food and deride fusion cuisine. It (much like most great cuisines) is the result of intermixing and interpretations of dishes. Many Indian dishes too wouldn’t have existed without foreign interaction. Potato dishes obv…

One of my favorite Indian dishes is Poori Masala (eaten with Poori obviously), which is mostly potatoes & tomatoes, both of which come from the New World.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#27

Post by dagmx »

bakul wrote: post #25
dagmx wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To add to your point on curry leaves: > Curry leaf” comes from the Tamil word “karu-vep-ilai” (‘black neem leaf’), leaves of the sweet neem plant Murraya koenigii

Thanks! In Gujarati we call it "meettho limdo" or sweet neem. It is dark green but not black (except when left in the 'frig for a few days or on the plant when it is sick!).

There’s some possible history further back in our languages where kala might have meant darker not just black.

Similarly the etymology of Krishna (the deity) is both considered “dark” or “black” depending on whom you ask.

I suspect it may be a case where our languages at the time didn’t need to delineate between black and a dark colour. Tone/shade was a relative unlike hue.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#28

Post by Brajeshwar »

I'm not much into food. I'm kinda the "I eat because I have to." My disclaimer is that I'm not an expert but here are a few interesting stories that might be relevant to this story.

I come from a place where there is a huge influence of the Japanese and grew up in folklores punctuated with Japanese stories. I got to know a tad more, when one of my school-friend took a keen interest in digging up British and Japanese soldiers remains from the World War, built a museum, and is regularly invited as a diplomat by both the Japanese and the British.

I grew up visiting many Japanese monuments, including the last stand of the INA's holding place in India where Subhas Chandra Bose worked with the Japanese.

For the food, from the story, I'm of the believe that the curry is more Bengal-ish than further mainland India. The food from my place are a major blend of our olden recipes spiced up with the Bengali recipe, with an additional dose of East Asia.

Also, most Indian Restaurants in India, if not owned, are pretty much run (cooks, etc.) by Nepalese. And most "Chinese" restaurants by Bengalis. Of course, the "Chinese" food in India are, well, very very Indian-ised.

I also grow up memorizing most scenes from "Bridge on the River Kwai" as that bridge, after crossing, goes through my home-stage to advance into India during the war.

Re: The roots of Japan's Indian curry

#29

Post by dagmx »

ipqk wrote: post #26
dagmx wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of Japanese dishes that are popular today have foreign origins. Tempura, curry, ramen, and salmon for sushi. It’s why I find it hilarious when some people obsess over the authenticity of Japanese food and deride fusion cuisine. It (much like most great cuisines) is the result of intermixing and interpretations of dishes. Many Indian dishes too wouldn’t have existed without foreign interaction. Potato dishes obv…

One of my favorite Indian dishes is Poori Masala (eaten with Poori obviously), which is mostly potatoes & tomatoes, both of which come from the New World.

I was trying to think of which of my childhood dishes could have existed without the new world imports.

So much of Indian cuisine today is so heavily influenced by the new world.

I found this Reddit thread that went into it a bit which I found quite fascinating.

https://reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/4rwri1/what_was_...

Even the lentil dishes, where lentils were native, now have a lot of new world additions to enhance them.

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