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CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

cbsnews.com

131–140 of 184 posts

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does the CDC have to gain by downplaying the seriousness of this disaster? Don't you remember what happened to 9/11 workers who then died of specific forms of cancer? The US government fully knew that working there was dangerous for their health due to the toxic dust. What executive working at the CDC now will still be there in 15 years? That won't be their problem...

9/11 was an unprecedented event; nobody had been exposed to that level of powdered modern-constructed building before in the US. Not in those population numbers. Vinyl chloride exposure risk, in contrast, is pretty well understood; we've been working with it for over 100 years (and crashing trainloads of it for about that long). I agree the EPA (not CDC) made errors after 9/11, but they were working with a novel thre…

“Novel threat?!” Just “Errors?”

You underplay this, however unwittingly. (Sorry for the long post here.)

I lived in New York suburbs and had a firefighter friend who by his commanding officers was encouraged not to go down there (reasons unknown to me) despite being willing. I was glad for him (and his family) because the risk of spending days/weeks in that strange smelling smoke were pretty obvious.

Common sense isn’t “science” but the Bayesian priors for the risk given what we knew about asbestos, asbestos in office buildings, other chemicals in plastics in office buildings, the prolonged period people were working in the smoke, the lack of leadership demanding masks due to the discomfort/heat and the great strange stench of the smoke were all pretty obvious to anyone following the news in the area.

Amidst very reasonable questioning and concern for first responder heros spending large amounts of time in the smoke (and after it was clear there were no more survivors to be found), while smoke was still abundant, the EPA literally declared it was “safe” during public questioning about it and in very strong terms, when it was clear there could be no such scientific basis to conclude a statement as strong as that. I was shocked at the time and I hold their previously respectable but politically-oriented leader Christine Todd Whitman personally responsible for the lie and injury to 1000s of people so that the capitalist system could rebuild as fast as possible at the expense of first responder suckers who trusted the elite all the while praising them for their sacrifice. (I don’t usually view the world in such terms but in this particular circumstance I completely do.)

The way people clearing the site as fast as possible were lied to was unconscionable. I am sure Ms. Whitman was pressured from above her, but I consider it one of the most obvious blatant political economically-driven hypocritical lies to come out of my government, a complete self-betrayal of the EPA in fulfilling their core mission purpose and values, and a dark disgrace upon all involved.

Looking back, I don’t think I misremembered the EPA characterization of it as “safe”. They did declare it safe per Wikipedia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_...

Per Wikipedia, Ms Whitman claims the agency statement of “safe” was never about ground zero, just lower manhattan, which I will concede may be true, but ground zero was a super obvious concern at the time amidst press questioning and even if I should be charitable and not claim it was a bald face lie, it was a lie by omission, misdirection, etc. The lack of clarity on the risks to ground workers or public concern or advocacy for them by the agency with the most expertise and pertinent mission was and is a betrayal. They couldn’t have added a qualifying statement of concern with whatever degree of uncertainty they had at the time about ground zero at the time? “There are risks/unknown here but not here?” I don’t mind also blaming local political officials also for using/misusing/twisting EPA words for their agendas and on behalf of are business owners small or large, or national security officials playing psychological or political games at the requests of their leadership, but I came away with the a stench of deception.

I try to tell myself “Deception? Couldn’t it have been just ordinary incompetence, a failure of leadership, scientific uncertainty?” But the silence about the risks to first responders and cleanup teams —all the while while the entire culture was voluminously heroizing them, to me, speaks volumes. This was a completely predictable tragedy which, while perhaps not completely avoidable, would have been much more morally defensible if the risks and unknowns would have been openly acknowledged and disclosed responsibly to the people who put their lives and health on the line to accelerate economic recovery so they could make an informed decision or requested at least hazard pay before taking the risks. But no. They were deceived and lied to. All while being praised for their sacrifice. Makes me sick.

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#133
post #79

It’s possible there is a benign explanation (spring is allergy season after all), but it’s insane that the government hasn’t been erring in the side of caution throughout this incident.

I wouldn't call it "insane." The temporary evacuation was erring on the side of caution. Vinyl chloride and the other materials on the train are extremely well-understood chemicals and denature pretty rapidly in the wild (especially if you expose them to a controlled burn).

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Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#134
post #83

Hmm. How about that. Might be a bigger deal then originally thought.

Many people knew it was a bigger deal, with a casual glance at the chemicals involved. It has been a typical snowjob because the media likes the people in charge.

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Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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The funny thing is, later down in the thread someone says the EPA already admitted their instruments can't detect toxin levels that are already known to be hazardous to health. So indeed their sampling method is wrong (or at least inadequate).

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#137

Can we update the title to be “East Palestine, Ohio”? Otherwise it reads like CDC is involved with chemical warfare allegations in Palestine.

If you're going to go that far, you should add "USA" to it as well. This is a very USA centric forum though, so it's perfectly fine leaving it as it is.

A better question is why is a CDC news article on train derailment on hacker news. What part of this article is related to technology or computers? It's just regular news.

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#138
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I'm sure the majority of those are trains popping off the track at low speeds.

And? The system shouldn't be in a steady state of expected failures. These are enormous machines that sometimes carry hazardous materials. Failure cannot be tolerated. It's indicative of a rotten culture of safety and mismanagement that ignores the problems.

Failure cannot be tolerated, but mother nature cannot be fooled. Its not a realistic way of thinking about risk unless you don't run any trains.

1000 also feels roughly consistent with the rest of the world considering how big the US is.

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#139
post #18
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USDOT does have an important role to play. But the link (which I admittedly didn't follow) has a headline about the CDC. EPA is also an important agency, maybe the most important one for this clean-up. All that to say I'm somewhat skeptical when criticism focuses on Pete Buttigieg in particular...

I think it's honestly quite fair. He was a presidential candidate and looks likely to run again in the next election - as a consolation prize he was appointed to the department that handles these things and absolutely failed to step up when a disaster directly in his domain happened. I think it's fair that he's held to a higher standard than Ellen Chao who was pretty much just a nepotism appointment and, as far as I'…

I don't really see what answer to "step up" wouldn't be considered wrong in the eyes of most people dunkin' on Buttigieg.

Personally wading in saving the fish?

Re: CDC team studying East Palestine train derailment fell ill during investigation

#140
post #92
post #3

That whole disaster was terribly handled. From The sec of transportation dragging his feel by weeks, to the president being dismissive and the train company saying no big deal... go back home, it's safe! I hope Erin can help to bring the attention and justice this disaster deserves. At least GWB, though a contemptible fellow otherwise, took his frat attitude up in a chopper to survey Katrina.

It's deeply concerning to me that democratic party insiders are still acting like Pete Buttigieg could be a future presidential nominee after his horrible handling of this disaster. Further horrifying to think that some of these people may rationalize minimizing and hiding evidence of harm from this disaster because they believe it would serve their political goals.

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