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He who submits a resume has already lost

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Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#91

Post by cornholio »

bjornsing wrote: post #52
cornholio wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work > We're not offering you a job. We offer you the opportunity This gem right here sums up what an employers market means. Every employer thinks they are special and wants an employee who's entire life's journey was only a preparation for the singular great moment of meeting you and building you…

> But guess what: you are not special, you are just a workplace and you compete in the marketplace for talent just like everybody else. For economic reasons that have nothing to do with you, you have more negotiating power for a limited time. That is all. I think it’s perfectly legitimate to not want to hire people with this attitude. Just a few people with this attitude can completely ruin an early stage company. An…

That's a fair retort, especially on HN. But I hope we agree an early stage startup is a very very particular organization that is looking for partners, not employees, because the efforts of each has a compounding impact on the capital gains of all.

So while it might be true for GP's company, it's not true for the vast number of available jobs. If you are not in the cap table (or have only unfavorable terms), then by definition you are something the company has bought on the market and that's exactly how the company is thinking about you - else the ownership situation would reflect it. It's a business, not a social club, you either own the capital or you are the capital. Expecting anything else in exchange for you unique snowflakiness is self-delusional and the road to abject bitterness, as many ex a googler and twitterer found out.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#92

Post by snickerer »

Programmer here, who worked as a freelance technical interviewer for the automotive industry in Germany.

I did many interviews, and stopped to read the CVs after a while. I tried to find a pattern between the CV and the candidate's programming skills, but found none. Nothing.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#93

Post by theden »

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

Not every engineer is product focused. I am myself am, but I understand that many engineers (including great ones) just like solving hard technical problems in a stack they like, the product itself is an afterthought.

By presupposing some ideal type of candidate and using that as a main signal, I think you're blundering and missing out on good candidates. I see that with a lot of startups that have more ego than they ought to.

>Why should I read your CV when you didn't bother skimming through my landing page, docs, or open source repository. What's the purpose of sending a CV when I have to do all the hard work?

How are you doing all the hard work, and aren't you getting paid to do that work—so what do you care? The candidates have a lot more to lose, it's much easier to skim through a CV than try to grok your homepage, repo, docs etc., and perhaps the more experienced engineers know the cost-benefit analysis of wasting their time going through arbitrary hoops after being burned many times before.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#94

Post by ryandrake »

elihu wrote: post #13
andrewstuart wrote: post #5

Overly generalized rant. Sure some jobs happen outside the resume submission system, but most of the employment market works via resume submission. There’s no value in reading this post.

Thinking back on my life, I can't remember a single example where I ever got a job just by submitting a resume. Either I already knew someone in the organization or otherwise had a relationship with it to begin with (e.g. I got a summer grounds job at a University because I was already a student there), or I met someone at an event who was looking for people to hire.

But how does that even work? Even if you know someone at the company, at some point you have to apply online, to get into the real HR pipeline.

I occasionally have people I used to work with ask me for help getting a job. I usually encourage them and give them some interview pointers, but ultimately I have to say “Here is the link to the posting, go apply and good luck!”

I am just employee number 52214. I don’t have an HR button I can push that says “fast track this swell guy!”

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#95

Post by RC_Blog »

keiferski wrote: post #69

I have also found that Jobs Acquired by Submitting Resume are almost always worse than Jobs Acquired Through Network. Which makes sense, as the network jobs mean you usually know at least one person working at the company and are friendly/culturally compatible with that person. And if that person works there, chances are that there will be other similar people.

Author here, and agreed. For different reasons, though - I think that when you've picked someone out of 400 applications, both you and they feel like they got "lucky", as opposed to being the handpicked winner of at least a couple hundred mostly-qualified applicants.

I contrast this most heavily with, say, someone the company has done cold outreach to get in touch with; like, yeah, there's a reason you did the cold outreach, they probably look like a good fit. But more importantly the power dynamic is different - the employer had to go to the applicant and ask for their attention. The applicant feels like something the employer might "lose" if they don't play their hand right, as opposed to someone who should feel honored to take the lower-mid of the payrange.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#96

Post by Leherenn »

Ekaros wrote: post #89
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, especially since the answer the the first question ("1. Why do you want to take this role?") is usually: "you have work to do, and have the money, I can do the work, and want the money"

If I truly loved your vision or product or something or believed in it, I probably would start my own competition. If I want to invest in it why not go all in. But I don't. So it is a transaction and you are one in hundreds of options I have over years. And you should also treat it like that.

Isn't there some healthy middle ground? I find some domains more interesting than others, I prefer some technical aspects over others. Some projects make more sense to me, or at least make me feel better.

Not enough to start my own company, but enough that the options leaning towards those will have the nod. You can be engaged without dedicating your life to it.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#97

Post by heleninboodler »

r_hoods_ghost wrote: post #72

Let's be honest, the alternative to having an open hiring process, i.e. resumes, is nepotism and hiring your chums and the chums of your contacts. Which does describe the hiring process in a lot of startups. Ethical issues aside, the problem with this is that it shrinks the pool of potential hires down drastically, to people who look like you, think like you, and know roughly the same things as you. Great if your cus…

But let's also be honest: startup founders aren't hiring "their chums" out of some unethical sense of helping their friends who don't deserve it, they're hiring people they know and who they have good reason to believe are going to help them succeed. The fact that their chums tend to be people who look like them and think like them is an unfortunate side effect of this, but the idea of getting candidates via networking is not fundamentally wrong when the goal is finding people you think are going to contribute. Personal experience with a candidate is a very strong bit of signal in an otherwise very flawed process.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#98

Post by vultour »

jensneuse wrote: post #7

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

It's hilarious that you think people are thrilled to work for your company. You could have this attitude if you were running a non-profit or were a pioneer in something. Running a fancy CRUD app ain't that, chief.

And to answer your question in a way that 99% of your applicants would like to, but your high-horse approach is stopping them:

1. To make money so I can pay for rent

2. Because I have previous experience with the tools and technologies you're using

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#99

Post by programmer_dude »

elihu wrote: post #13
andrewstuart wrote: post #5

Overly generalized rant. Sure some jobs happen outside the resume submission system, but most of the employment market works via resume submission. There’s no value in reading this post.

Thinking back on my life, I can't remember a single example where I ever got a job just by submitting a resume. Either I already knew someone in the organization or otherwise had a relationship with it to begin with (e.g. I got a summer grounds job at a University because I was already a student there), or I met someone at an event who was looking for people to hire.

As a counterpoint, every single job I've ever had I've got by submitting a resume. I have worked for six companies at this point.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#100

Post by Ekaros »

Leherenn wrote: post #96
Ekaros wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I truly loved your vision or product or something or believed in it, I probably would start my own competition. If I want to invest in it why not go all in. But I don't. So it is a transaction and you are one in hundreds of options I have over years. And you should also treat it like that.

Isn't there some healthy middle ground? I find some domains more interesting than others, I prefer some technical aspects over others. Some projects make more sense to me, or at least make me feel better. Not enough to start my own company, but enough that the options leaning towards those will have the nod. You can be engaged without dedicating your life to it.

I think it is more question that if a startup ask for passion and believe in their marketing. And one really had that, would it not be better to drive it yourself?

For those with not that strong convictions. Picking up reasonably interesting roles and fields where they have some skill coverage is entirely reasonable way to do things. Go for roles and companies you can be content with.

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