Live data from Hacker News

He who submits a resume has already lost

residentcontrarian.com

41–50 of 225 posts

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just some personal 2 Cents: I have hired quite a few people, interviewed many many and read countless CVs. In Tech, I really prefer 1 -2 pages tops in a short crisp CV; no extra text and weird sales pitch. Why? 1) Your actual experience, what you did, how your career progressed etc. matters most. That stuff goes beyond promises, wishes and dreams - but shows the sweat and tears. Github repo links etc: big plus 2) We…

That's because you're smart enough to look for key information and make assumptioms Most HR people prefer the 5-page, write-down-everything-you-have-done resume. I know because I have tried both routes and because of the feedback I got I have ended up maintaining 2 versions (long and short)

> Most HR people prefer the 5-page, write-down-everything-you-have-done resume

A company where resumes are pre screened by HR is anyway a no-go. From my experience this has pretty much disappeared in 2023.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#42

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

This is just more of the same thing the author was complaining about.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This attitude is well suited to an employers market in which you need to profess your love for the job and company as part of your job application. A pity the market has turned back this direction. It’s usually accompanied by an employer “looking for someone who loves the opportunity enough to go through our 12 week, 9 interview, 1 whiteboard, 2 coding test process which usually ends in veto and ghosting”. Like telli…

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platf…

>Either you're excited about this as much as we are, or you just send a CV.

[...]

>It's really not about loving what we do.

You do realize your contradicting yourself right?

Honestly, young wide-eyed new-grad me (which I bet is your target hiring demographic) would have totally bought into your baloney of "making the world a better place through minimal message oriented transport layers"[1], but as a gray beard I'd really be happy to be filtered out of your resume screening, as it reeks of cargo cult BS. I'm paid to do a job, not to join a cult and make that my life and working identity.

I apreciate your honesty though and I hope more companies do this so I can easily avoid them and save us both the time.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETi_UpG8D_k

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#44

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

I'll offer a counter view from my (annoyingly large) experience interviewing and hiring; I would ignore such statements on a CV at best, and depending on how much a candidate bets on this strategy, it might even work to their disadvantage.

I need smart people that want to work and are willing to do that work with my team; I don't want or need someone to promote the party line, that's why we have Sales and Brand teams, I need people who for some amount of time are willing to spend their time and skills on our problem sets. Our problem sets aren't so unique, so I also want them to stick around for awhile (not forever, that's unrealistic). Finally, I need and want people that can at least be cordial with the existing team as opposed to disrupting it.

If I ask my colleagues who also decide on hiring, probably they'd have different wants and needs, maybe echoing the parent post, I don't know for sure. There's what my colleagues say and then what they think when deciding. It's a crap shoot for the candidates for sure, and I'm very sympathetic to this; it's also a crap shoot for us as it means that depending on who takes the interview, a different set of criteria is being used, so it's a real risk; autocratizing isn't good either because then it means higher chances we can't evolve the team.

Hiring is a real mess, and I have no good answer on making it better, just that it needs to be. The short list of problems I think are pretty universal for candidates and employers includes:

- It's an inefficient and time consuming process for all

- It encourages both sides to lie to each other for legal reasons and because it's the only way to get attention

- It's too easy for misinformation/weak points to cloud the process with misinformation, intentionally or otherwise

- Everyone has to make decisions based on incomplete and often inaccurate information

- The interests of employers and candidates are set up to be at odds, even though it shouldn't be this way (salaries, benefits, demands on time/skills, emotional costs, etc)

With CVs/resumes, I probably spend no more than 2-5 minutes on them, and it's usually with ctrl+f to hunt down the keywords for skills we identified would solve our problem set and to give me something to talk with the candidate about during the interview, and the interview is mostly to figure out "does this candidate actually have relevant experience here or it's just keyword spamming?"

I'm very lucky that at least one of our Talent Acquisition teams is quite good and their initial interviews/screenings have a higher success rate than the other TA teams, so I've come to rely on that a lot, but it's still difficult as the TA team are not technical persons, and despite their earnest interest (and KPIs) to get us in touch with good candidates, mistakes happen.

I really wonder what hiring would look like if work wasn't a requirement for people to survive, that is, in a world with universal income and guaranteed living. The work still needs to be done, but the candidates in this scenario have a much different incentive since their literal livelihood doesn't depend on them getting the job. My hope is that it would mean candidates choose to apply because of their genuine interest, and the type of problems the company tries to solve suddenly become a much more competitive currency we barter with. I think some might say that it already is like that, but I think that's an incomplete understanding of how hiring has worked for a very long time.

So I'm really not sure how to make it better and more efficient, and how to get past the awful situation we have now; I hope that removing the "you need this job to survive" can gain traction and make it better, but the cynic in me says this isn't likely in my life time.

For the time being, what I would recommend for technical candidates is the following:

1. Be cordial with the recruiters. You don't have to suck up to them, but if you can't at least be cordial with them, I have low hopes you are going to be cordial with the people you need to work with every day. The recruiters have their guidance on what we're looking for and yes it's going to be basic and limited stuff I told them to check out; they aren't going to understand everything about our tech and work naturally, but what they're screening is the basic stuff that they can understand so that I don't have to check these basics. They want you hired also remember, because it is their job to get people hired; at least the TA teams I like are constantly advocates for candidates they think have a chance, so don't burn bridges with the persons who are sticking up for you internally†

2. Keep your CV relevant and concise. Concise doesn't mean short, write what you think we're interested in, but make it parsable. I want to be able to understand what tech you've worked with, your responsibilities regarding it, and to have some items for us to talk about. Hundreds of bullet points or listed items doesn't help me if it buries the relevant experiences for me under layers of irrelevant experiences. Length, specific words/phrases, it's not as important even for the auto-screening tools. Just take a small amount of time to make it well formatted, free of typos, and it's likely fine. Freebie CV generators are perfectly fine, and preferable to CV templates in Word or other hand rolled CVs. Length doesn't matter as we're just going to ctrl+f anyways.

3. Make it clear what problem sets you're interested in, and during the interview, ask questions so that you understand if our problem sets and day to day are among your interests. I'm usually happy to talk about our day to day pretty directly so that you have a complete picture on what you're applying if it means

4. Just be cordial during the interview; I don't need people to flatter me or the company, and I just need to see you can work with the team; I don't learn that from hearing how great the company is.

† I'm fully aware that many Talent Acquisition Teams are quite awful, and many recruiters are not like I described here; nevertheless, they are often still the only advocate you'll have unless you know someone on the inside. I think most hiring managers rely heavily on their TA teams regardless of how good they are, so at least be cordial with recruiters.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#45
post #13

Overly generalized rant. Sure some jobs happen outside the resume submission system, but most of the employment market works via resume submission. There’s no value in reading this post.

Thinking back on my life, I can't remember a single example where I ever got a job just by submitting a resume. Either I already knew someone in the organization or otherwise had a relationship with it to begin with (e.g. I got a summer grounds job at a University because I was already a student there), or I met someone at an event who was looking for people to hire.

And I've only ever gotten jobs through resumes. I have no family, friends, or acquaintances. Most people wouldn't willingly be in my presence were it not for the fact that I can occasionally be useful to them. And I rarely leave my home for anything other then absolute necessities to eat and maintain personal hygiene.

I assume you at least have some level of charisma that would make others think of you positively at combined with skill. As well as some willingness to go to events as you say.

You and I think though are somewhat exceptional in that regard; I assume most people would have gotten their jobs with a bit of a mix of the two in varying ratios.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#46
post #15

> A group of 50 applicants submit resumes for a job. 10 or so of them are delusional, and get cut. I think the author never worked in hiring for an org that got a lot of applicants. When I was a hiring manager, we sometimes opened reqs and got hundreds of applications within the first one or two days.

Not to mention that a 20% delusional rate is pretty unlikely - more like 50-75% in my experience.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand where you're coming from, but see it differently. This really is a filter. We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work at WunderGraph. We're the first to build a Backend for Frontend Framework, unifying the ideas of API Gateway, BFF and package manager. Our long term goal is to build the GitHub for APIs, a collaborative platf…

> We don't want job applications from people who are looking for a job. We're looking for people who actually want to do work > We're not offering you a job. We offer you the opportunity This gem right here sums up what an employers market means. Every employer thinks they are special and wants an employee who's entire life's journey was only a preparation for the singular great moment of meeting you and building you…

If the hiring pool for this job is global, I think it's entirely reasonable to expect to hear from people that are uniquely suited to the role.

And it goes both ways. These days I pick a job based on whether the work is going to help me learn what I need to make progress on my side projects. If I was searching locally that would be an entirely unreasonable filter, but so far it's been win-win.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#48

I keep giving this advice on how to significantly increase your chances of getting to the interview stage. Most candidates really only submit a resume. The chances of getting to the interview stage with this approach are almost zero. Because everyone does this, you can easily stand out. Simply answer the following 2 questions briefly in plain English. 1. Why do you want to take this role? 2. Why are you a good fit fo…

While I am no stranger to interacting with developers who seem to only be in the industry because of how well it pays, I find your advice frustrating. My experience with startups is that they demand a lot of A) interest from the candidate immediately, before the candidate has even talked to a human, and B) attention from the candidate- but that same interest and attention is not returned to the candidate. Thinking about the startups I interviewed with in the last couple of years (all via TripleByte fwiw), I have noticed the following patterns:

- The founders/cofounders think they have come up with the best idea ever, when objectively the idea is novel but garbage (usually a solution looking for a problem), and only want to hire people eager to smell their farts all day long (and probably on some nights and weekends, too).

- The interview process is unnecessarily complicated, despite the supposed ahead-of-time vetting done by TripleByte (which used to tout "skip to the final interview", but in reality is "skip the computer-graded, timed Leetcode Easy brain teaser"). In the worst-case, a company had me interview with 4 different people throughout the week, give a 15-minute presentation on a coding project I worked on, and then they expected me to work nights and weekends for an entire week to "test drive" me (the irony here is that while they get an idea of what it's like to have me as an employee, I don't really get to see what it's like to work for them as a company - it's not like I am in their Slack channels or participating in meetings.

- The pay isn't that great. Again, the founders are delusional, think it would be a real privilege for anyone to work for them, and seem to believe that they cannot be too selective. "Give me a candidate who has familiarity with NodeJS on the backend and [Scala/Ruby/Go/Rust] (because why not), is willing and able to work nights and weekends (but it's okay because we offer uNliMiTeD PTO), all for the generous, generous salary of $130k/year.

If you don't draw parallels between these and Wundergraph, kudos, but with each of the startups I interviewed with, I could feel myself becoming more and more jaded until I just gave up. A year later I'm still at my current job, and I'm glad I stayed, but I put a lot of energy into those interviews, hours spent even before I had my first interview, just researching the company, looking at their code (if any of it was public) and coming up with thoughtful questions. Why did these four companies not want to give me a job offer? I'm not sure. It could certainly be cultural more than technical. Despite my cynical attitude now, I promise you I came into each interview with enthusiasm, respect, and genuine interest in the role.

I was also sure they all knew where to find my LinkedIn, Medium, StackOverflow and Github profiles, which all give insight into my abilities and (I think) prove I enjoy writing code and building stuff, and most importantly, that I could probably handle whatever frontend-for-a-database app they were building. Let's be real, most apps aren't that complicated.

Re: He who submits a resume has already lost

#49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the interview, we'll ask in the first minutes what's your opinion of what we do. ChatGPT will not get you that far. After all, what's the point of faking interest? Eventually you'll never really get the job. All you do is waste everybody's time.

> In the interview, we'll ask in the first minutes what's your opinion of what we do. You pay people for their labor. Most people view that favorably. The ones who don’t you probably don’t want to hire. Requiring people to join your cult seems a bit much imho.

> Requiring people to join your cult seems a bit much imho.

Idk, GP has maybe been… over-expressive about their opportunity, but it’s still good advice that showing an interest is going to make you stand out more. Saying “do you need code written because I can write code” says nothing.

I’m getting work done on my house and the guy who’s getting the work is the one who spent a bit more time looking at my house and assessing what needs done rather than a cursory glance. Isn’t it understandable that employers want at least some engagement?

Post reply on HN