Why Americans Care About Work So Much • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#41

Post by houseinthewoods » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:53 AM UTC

Dalewyn wrote: post #35

DubiousPusher wrote: post #17

I very much agree with the author's thesis here. I think there is a kind of derangement especially among SV types about making every job about rescuing the world. And I think it comes from exactly this place of the human need for spirituality which is currently starved. But I had to screech the breaks for a second at this conjecture. > Their work was a matter of subsistence and necessity; it was not a race for status…

>Their spiritual frameworks provided direction on ... whom to marry and how to raise children. As a non-religious man (no, not atheist: non-religious ), I can definitely say that the lack of an overbearing deity or otherwise some sort of Code of Divine Conduct(tm) prescribing such things has led me to put such frivolous matters as marriage and family aside and very likely never touched upon again. Objectively, I simp…

:(

Maybe I'm indoctrinated and you're not but please reply to this comment if you end up falling in love down the line, it'd be funny and make me happy <3

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#42

Post by gbrindisi » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:53 AM UTC

n0tahacker wrote: post #32

"Workism" comes from protestantism: Ora et Labora. America is a protestantic country, so I am not wondering why work is so important to them.

Note that The Benedict rule is catholic, pre protestant. I still think you are right that protestant culture is a root cause to some degree.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#43

Post by renewiltord » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:53 AM UTC

7speter wrote: post #10

chii wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> especially if you are able bodied and healthy if you're abled bodied, and healthy, why should society bear a burden of giving you resources to live off long term? To exist means to locate the resources to live (such as food, shelter, etc). These resources can no longer be foraged like in the days of old, and thus, the allocation of these resources must come from a mechanism we call market and employment today. A so…

> A social safety net is required, but only in so far as the time it takes to get yourself another job (any job - not just a preferred job). One should not be on social safety net permanently Oh you mean get a job now when employers are just collecting resumes for “talent pipelines” they can hire from at some future date, or just to improve morale of their current overworked employees? And what if you’re an able bodi…

Unemployment is incredibly low - besides which you can always train to be an ironworker. Make it to journeyman and it's just a matter of not fucking it up.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#44

Post by renewiltord » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:54 AM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #4

I really want to quit but then who's going to pay for my wife's pregnancy? Healthcare and mandatory expenses can destroy one's life in America.

If you're poor, the pregnancy healthcare in Austin, TX is pretty good. So the answer is: the rest of us.

That's probably for the best since you and your wife are going to spend the next two decades constructing another active labor force member - every one of whom is precious to us as a society.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#45

Post by DoreenMichele » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:55 AM UTC

It is rooted in the belief that work can provide everything we have historically expected from organized religion: community, meaning, self-actualization.

In the US, a lot of benefits, like healthcare coverage and retirement benefits, are tied to employment. This is not equally true in all countries and helps fuel an obsession with work.

Later in the piece, it mentions work as rating above traditional values like patriotism and marriage.

Historically, marriage was largely about survival. It was an economic arrangement and people were much less romantic about it than today.

Nationalism has also been blamed as a root cause of wars Historically. With regional governing bodies emerging, such as the EU and ASEAN, we may be on our way towards a world government, but emergent rather than in a top down fashion.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#46

Post by Aunche » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 6:56 AM UTC

IMO, anyone who thinks that Americans care too much about work need to check their perspective. The Chinese workers in American Factory care a lot about work. I suspect that Americans a century ago were the same, but I think we lost that drive for a while now.

Working hours has been consistent over the last couple decades, which is significantly less than that of the 50s [1]. People are idolizing Office Space and George Costanza types. What people are worshiping is not work, but consumption. If people worked less, they're more likely to waste more time consuming media, than they will spend it on church and community service. Of course, nobody is going to admit to prioritizing weed TikTok, despite both exploding in popularity, so they'll say that they that the most important thing is what enables their consumption, which is work.

[1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/AVHWPEUSA065NRUG

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#47

Post by fnordpiglet » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:40 AM UTC

It’s hard to read something about American work ethic without a reference to puritans and Protestant work ethics, which emphasized self improvement and productivity as a means of being closer to God and Gods aspiration for man. This belief system suffuses American ethos top to bottom, from the stories children are told to traditions like working over the summer in high school, having a paper route, etc. Add to it a strong influence the Great Depression had on families, leading into the war, leading into obsessive work habits of the 1950’s and 1960’s.

I lost a bit of the thread but I think the author is trying to get at - what does the American work ethic mean in a post scarcity economy - I think is important to deal with as I think it’s a lot closer than we think. Will we create artificial hamster wheels for everyone? To what extent is the hamster wheel artificial already? Sans health care, many folks could more than satisfy their needs and wants with much less. Will the “system” as it were hold our basic needs like health care as extortion to keep the hamster wheels occupied? Or will a fundamental shift in priorities occur where basic needs are met with the plenty and people of ambition labor for the premium? What about a day when work that is today premium, thought labor, is automated with the steam engine of the mind? What labor would be the premium labor then? Ultimately I wonder if American society, particularly with its highly aggressive conservatism, can survive post scarcity.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#48

Post by fnordpiglet » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:43 AM UTC

Liquix wrote: post #7

On the potential downsides of WFH triggering a drawback from workism: If community means “where you keep showing up,” then, for many people, the office is all that’s left. What happens when it goes the way of bowling leagues and weekly church attendance? Bowling leagues, churches, meditation centers, hiking groups, tabletop game gatherings, music festivals, etc are alive and well! Becoming isolated from remote work,…

My thought on this is it’s depressing we replaced the community with the office. That’s an emergent reality caused by the extremeness of office hours and commute times as people adjust to a new reality they will find each other again - this time in their neighborhood.

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#49

Post by fnordpiglet » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:50 AM UTC

jongjong wrote: post #19

Regardless of how people feel about work, no government agency should ever aim for job creation as a goal. The irony of modern life is that it's often people who don't need to work who enjoy work the most... The game is fun to them mostly because it's rigged in their favor. On the other side, when the game is rigged against you, it's hard to think of anything worse. If I could get the same salary as I do now to liter…

Job creation isn’t the same as forcing you to work. That’s lack of public health care

Re: Why Americans Care About Work So Much

#50

Post by exolymph » Sat, Apr 01, 2023, 7:53 AM UTC

scruple wrote: post #20

protonbob wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plenty of us still go to church every week!

What do I do if I want to "go back" to church but I don't believe? Speaking personally, and without spilling a few paragraphs of text here, it seems like that's where I am today.

Go to church anyway. You don't have to believe to attend services.