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Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

economist.com

351–360 of 451 posts

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's just a popular place for remote people. The usual white digital nomad bro who goes there to sleep around. (Plenty of women doing this too btw) It's a nice spot but it's just for fucking around in your 20's. (Or 30's if you live an alternative lifestyle or are a terrible romantic partner)

>or are a terrible romantic partner Woah, while you might be right to some extent, it feels pretty harsh to judge someone else so superficially just on where they choose to travel, and what they do there, and at what age they do it.

The entire comment is judgmental and insecure. There are just as many women only there to do yoga and “find themselves”, and they have the nerve to be white too.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#352
post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its actually not that unexpected, a big contributor is inflation. If you've any experience with Argentina, or other hyper-inflationary events, there comes a point where your labor is more valuable to you than what others are willing to pay you for. When the store of value is degrading rapidly, and wages in general always lag, those with options will do something else. Most companies I know simply are unwilling to adj…

We are talking about people making above >150k/year here right ? At no point does 10-20% inflation mean they are better off growing their own food or some shit like that. Your point is probably applicable in less developed economies/low paid positions. For highly specialized well paid positions if this was the case you'd probably have a societal collapse.

Lets do some basic math, and then afterwards I think it will be clear how it might be better to grow your own food.

Also, not everyone makes that much, and you seem to think that's a lot but its really not, especially if inflation is eating away at your stores regularly (over a greater time period than a year).

So, here comes the basic math available from looking up some publicly available figures. I only say this because some people have past trauma associated with math in general, but its really critical to make any kind of rational comparison.

The Federal tax rate above 89K is $15,213.50 in taxes plus 24% of the amount over $89,075 for Federal up to ~170k, and then you also have State taxes which may be as high as 13.3%; more if you own property (% based on fixed value), plus its counted as ordinary income so social security and medicare take off another 15.3%. Anything you buy has sales tax so another ~7%, and fuel/vehicle taxes.

Overall, at 89K ordinary income, 15213 = ~17% +15.3%+13.3% = ~45.6%, nearly half of what you get paid on goes to the government. Now comes along 20% inflation, and this is a tax because they printed too much money and couldn't balance a budget.

So 65.6%, assuming inflation is at 20% and not much higher, then there's taxes on various goods you have to purchase such as fuel and general sales tax, property taxes, it varies, but we'll say 7% or more on any dollar you spend, and depending how much you have to drive, that could be about 3% (to make it round), since vehicle costs and taxes are non-deductible.

So factoring in all taxes on that income you receive, somewhere between 65 and 75.6% with 20% inflation goes to government. If you are self employed, you have more options to make certain costs deductible, and if you are not its about half of that 15.3% less so there's some leeway.

So, you can work 80 hour weeks, stressful job, making that 89K/year or more, and only take home ballpark around 30,616 after factoring in inflation, and taxes. If you don't reinvest in an asset that sheltered from inflation you lose that much or more of your surplus/stores the following year and each subsequent year thereafter whereas business simply passes it through to you in higher costs.

Alternatively, you can grow your own food, produce your own products, work less, and keep 100% of what you produce and use, and if you have surplus sell some of it if the price is right and they'll tax you on that small amount.

Should you trade 4160 hours of your life for 89K, when, by the time you get it and can spend it, you only take home about 30K and the prices may have risen just as quickly during that time to net 0 or negative.

That's part of the horror of hyper-inflation, and while it hasn't by definition hit 50%/month yet, nothing fundamentally has changed to stop inflation despite what the news may be saying.

Those that have lived through similar situations know they have to invest their efforts in producing their own goods such as raising chickens, goats, milk and cheese. Without food security and having people who have specialized labor that can help out, you are at the mercy of creditors and the producers you depend on for daily necessities and they will pass inflation costs on.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Retiring isn’t that fun when you’re in your 30s I would kill to retire. All I want to do is make art, music, cook, hike, kayak, and travel on the cheap. I have about.... 1/20th of the savings needed.

Buncha folx humble bragging and moralizing about retiring at 30 after building trivial CRUD for dubious ad tech as some apex achievement and we surely will mourn their departure into the sunset.

Better than virtue signaling and being a wage slave all your life.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'just' feels slightly de-dignifying, but overall this is not totally wrong. I'd say there's a lot more to do there than sleep around, but there seemed to be plenty of that. (I'm white-passing, have done the nomad thing in the past, didn't go to sleep around, don't consider myself to be a terrible romantic partner, but am recently divorced, so you shouldn't take only my word on that). I'm nearly autistic when it comes…

Interesting, I've gotten very interested in land use recently and had not heard this about Indonesia. Are you talking specifically about Bali here? Because I've been to Jakarta and I can't say I endorse the land use there based on the few business trips I've taken. Where can I read more about what you're talking about?

Huzzah! Another aficionado of land use issues!

Alain Bertaud wrote a book called "order without design". He's an urban economist, and... his book is all a city planner needs to do their job correctly.

Towards the end of the book he talks about the indonesian Kampung, briefly touched upon in this interview here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/urban-pla...

I had long wanted to visit this sort of place, so in Bali, I walked into (and around) many, many, many kampungs, and sure enough, they were beautiful, affordable, and served the people that lived in and around them so well.

I believe all 'big' cities have adopted the 'american'/euclidean zoning version of land use policy, which was implemented by southerners in the 1920s to implement a regime of social control, allowing one ethnic group to use the political process to dominate another ethnic group. Jakarta follows the american land use policy, with the expected deleterious effects.

more on the land use policy as social control/ethnic cleansing: https://josh.works/full-copy-of-1922-atlanta-zone-plan

I'd strongly recommend getting a copy of Alain's book. It's the most concise take on land use policy I've encountered, and I've sorta 'read the canon' when it comes to these kinds of things.

Another recommendation: "The Slaughter of Cities: Urban Renewal as Ethnic Cleansing" https://www.fidelitypress.org/slaughter-of-cities

I write about all of this stuff on my website (in my profile) and tiktok. I talk too much about zoning-as-ethnic-cleansing, according to some people, but i don't mind. https://www.tiktok.com/@josh_exists

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I retired in my 20s. It's a fun novelty, but it wore off quickly. Your friends and family aren't around in most of your free time, and those things you used to enjoy in your limited free time now can't stretch to fill the new 10+ hours a day you have. Like most things, the grass is greener on the other side.

Really? How? I think we need to redefine retirement as “financial independence and free to do what you want”. I could honestly fill several hundred years of retirement with things I want to do. The people who get bored really puzzle me.

I retired by starting businesses early (16, all failed) and learning the lessons early to run something more successful when the opportunity arose. Those who train for it seem to get the most luck.

I thought the same as you and as an avid game, tech enthusiasts, electronics enthusiast, outdoorser reader and social person, I thought I'd be fine.

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) I find these things hold no intrensic meaning beyond the enjoyment of the moment - which I love, but isn't enough to satiate. None of these things bring fulfillment or accomplish any goal beyond thr arbitrary ones I set myself.

I suppose all goals are arbitrary at some level, but in my years retired I'm yet to work out how to bring that sense of real accomplishment back in my passtimes.

As such, I moved back from retirement to semi retirement after about 3 years. I still live on my own schedule, but I run a number of small businesses designed to do but not take over my life. I also volunteer and raise a family. I can't imagine ever fully "retiring" again, and I can see why a lot of older people give up on life after they do.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#356
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is your reasoning here that it is selfish, because not everyone can do that, and if everyone could/did, then society would collapse due to no food production, garbage collection, emergency services, law enforcement etc, as all those people would also be out painting/kayaking etc? I ask because as I first read your comment I was unable to see the selfishness, since GP outlined that they lacked the financial means to s…

Right, my thinking here is that the dream of running away from the very society that granted you the freedom to run away seems like you're not "paying it forward" enough, to enable others to have the freedom you'd be taking advantage of. Rather, I would imagine the "not-selfish" version of this would be to spend your life doing those things, and finding ways to help others get to where you're lucky to be. I just find…

Not that you asked, but that's not the attitude I have, and not the impact of retirement. Retirement is the freedom to do what you care about without the fear of going hungry or homeless. It's a luxury and a privilege, to be sure. But it in no way is telling anyone to fuck off. If that were the case, every retiree at 65 is telling the world to fuck off. Or is there some arbitrary number at which you're not telling the world to fuck off? Is it ok to retire at 65 but not 55? Or 45? Should we work until we're dead?

A life of "leisure" still contributes to society. I would of course still pay bills and buy things, supporting business. I'd still pay my taxes, supporting the government. I'd still volunteer, like I do now outside my job. I'd like to teach, write, and create more (I like to sing, make music, art, furniture, etc). And I'd really like to start an informal class for underprivileged youth to learn computer skills and get a job without going to college, like I did.

If I didn't have to work, I'd have a hell of a lot more time to make the world a better place. In addition to the selfish kayaking, cooking, traveling, etc, that I already do with a job.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting, I've gotten very interested in land use recently and had not heard this about Indonesia. Are you talking specifically about Bali here? Because I've been to Jakarta and I can't say I endorse the land use there based on the few business trips I've taken. Where can I read more about what you're talking about?

Huzzah! Another aficionado of land use issues! Alain Bertaud wrote a book called "order without design". He's an urban economist, and... his book is all a city planner needs to do their job correctly. Towards the end of the book he talks about the indonesian Kampung, briefly touched upon in this interview here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-11/urban-pla... I had long wanted to visit this sort of pla…

Euclidean zoning is named after Euclid, Ohio, which is manifestly not in the South.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#358
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No way, since any such degree wouldn't cost any money, instead it would pay you. Spending 500k on a degree is absolutely insane and indicates that there's a lot more to the story than what's being told. The only exception I can think of is if this person attended a top 10 university, like MIT, Harvard, Stanford, in which case they likely have nothing to worry about.

Not even that. Someone who is 50 now would have gone to MIT/Harvard/Stanford in the early-mid '90's. Tuition was not that high in those times, maybe $25k/year. Here's a quote from MIT [1] >Nine months' tuition for 1994-95 is $20,100. In addition, undergraduate room and board ranges from $4,530 to $6,075, with a standard of $5,975; actual costs depend on the student's housing and dining arrangements. Books, materials…

[deleted]

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#359

Laid-off tech worker here. (backend engineer, ruby/rails/javascript). 5 years of experience. I'm working on not ever going back into tech. I've changed careers a number of times in my 34 years of life, and am doing it again. I'm only a mediocre software developer, have always had strong people/business skills, informed by my pre-software experience of commercial construction, teaching/training at a climbing gym, cust…

A career change is really attractive but adjusting salary expectations is brutal. Skilled jobs I was interested in and assumed were making $30+ an hour I looked into and found they are closer to $18-20/hr. After tech gigs making 250k+ with equity it is a pretty brutal downgrade. My interest is in starting an all electric gardening company, electric tools have caught up to gas ones, they are almost silent and have 0 e…

Agreed, I'm probably past the point where I could make a jump into the career area I wish I had gone into with hindsight (forest ranger, fisheries & wildlife, land management for land trusts, etc), but if I was <= 35 I would consider it. However at the age of 41 I've crossed into the 250k+ total comp territory and it's hard to imagine taking that significant pay decrease and making a move where I'm at the bottom of the ladder.

Re: Where have all the laid-off tech workers gone?

#360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Working on going independent here in Denver, acting as a 'broker' between businesses and their staff/customers to convert single-occupancy-vehicle-users to scooters, to increase the functional number of parking spaces in a given parking lot by 10% or more. How do you make money doing this? I also don't see how you really achieve this as a business. The best way to do this would imo run for city council with the bac…

How to make money: Offer this as a service to a business. The service (which I'm charging for, but don't yet have customers) is: 1. Paint some scooter parking lines in a reasonable spot, and add a signage explaining why the org wants to incentivize scooter usage. 2. The scooter parking would make use of existing nooks and crannys in the parking lot, so it wouldn't take away existing car parking. 3. Work with the staf…

The pitch is that businesses can reduce parking congestion (is there a dollar value you can pin to this?) by paying you to act as a personal scooter consultant for their employees?

During research did you come across any mass-market applications of this sort of concierge service? It sounds very niche/upscale. I can’t think of any purchase I’ve made where I could have even found someone to hold my hand through it that wasn’t the person making the sale. The closest analogue I can think of is a travel agency.

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