Live data from Hacker News

If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

scottaaronson.blog

231–240 of 475 posts

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far it seems letting private industry iterate on LLMs doesn't directly pose to a risk of ending lives like human trials and nuclear weaponry development do.

I think the fear of LLMs is very overblown. On the other hand, I think that if LLMs actually manage to do what proponents hope it will, some people will die as a result due to economics when they lose their jobs. That's not unique to LLMs, of course. It's what has happened before every time something has obsoleted a bunch of jobs. There's no reason to think this time would be any different.

The old excuse from AI researchers was that once AI takes all the mundane jobs, people will be free to become artists. Ask artists now what they think about AI. A whole lot of them aren't very happy about it.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Get any Truman show vibes? No. It's an interesting thought experiment but it changes nothing. Not for me, anyway. Commenting on these threads is an activity that I do for my own entertainment and "mental flexing." If it turns out that I'm not talking to real people then it doesn't make much of a difference because I don't actually perceive these messages as anything other than pixels on a screen anyway. I hope that…

> If it turns out that I'm not talking to real people then it doesn't make much of a difference because I don't actually perceive these messages as anything other than pixels on a screen anyway. It matters a lot to me because the whole point of commenting here (or anywhere) is to talk to other humans, not just to talk to myself.

> ..whole point of commenting here (or anywhere) is to talk to other humans..

honestly, if i can't tell the difference between an AI and a human here then why does the difference matter? If every comment on this story was AI generated except for mine I still received the same insight, enjoyment, and hit of dopamine. I don't think I really care between communicating with an AI or human if i can't tell the difference.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#233
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the NSA isn't going to stop, the CCP isn't going to stop. Anyone who doesn't stop is a threat to my personal freedom, so the only logical reaction to me is to empower yourself as well as possible and keep training.

Huh? How does someone else’s possession of a LLM threaten your personal freedom? How does training your own counteract that? They’re not Pokémon…

>> They’re not Pokémon…

Despite all the evolutions.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#234
IMO the real danger of good AI is that we don't have the collective intelligence to safely manage our expectations writ large. This train of thought is a little messy, so apologies in advance:

- Just like the fusiform gyrus responds to human faces at a subconscious level (see: uncanny valley faces just "feeling" wrong, because they are detected as inhuman below the level of conscious thought), the Wernicke's area responds to human speech when reading text. I believe that grammatically-perfect speech is subconsciously perceived as human by most people, even tech people, despite attempts to remain impartial - we are biologically hard-wired to assign humanness to written language.

- ChatGPT and its peers do not report confidence levels, so the typical interaction is information that may or may not be correct, presented confidently.

- Average (non-tech) people interacting with chat AIs are aware that it is connected to vast stores of training data without understanding the limitations of statistical LLMs or the need for confidence values in responses, lending them an air of "intelligence" due to the volume of data "available."

- This leads to a non-trivial number of people interacting with chat AI and taking its responses as gospel.

Anecdotally, if you traverse social media you will see an unending stream of people reporting their experiences with how amazing chatGPT is, using it for everything from writing emails to writing school essays. The problem is that when a non-tech person interacts with ChatGPT, they assume based on the above listed factors that what they get back is correct, valid thought from a semi-intelligent being. Even knowing it's a robot, the perfect correctness of the grammar will instill a feeling of validity in a non-trivial segment of the population over time.

This is leading to a scenario where people trust what GPT says about various topics without bothering to question it, and I believe this is already happening. When I bring this up to other tech people, it is usually dismissed with "well, everyone knows it's just an AI," or "people will learn it's limitations." However, at the risk of being glib, consider George Carlin: "think about how dumb the average person is, and then realize half the population is dumber than that." What happens when the average person turns to a statistical LLM for advice on relationships, career moves, how to vote, or other nebulous topics where there is no real correct answer? How will we control where ChatGPT is steering vast numbers of uninformed petitioners?

We already struggle as a society with collective action on existentially important topics like controlling microplastic dispersion, regulating toxic additives in consumer products, and climate change. And those topics are "merely" complex; imagine how much harder it will be to control unintended or unforeseen consequences of a human-like intelligence-adjacent being delivering information of questionable value to an unquestioning audience of 20-40% of humanity?

Addendum: I am also very worried about schoolchildren using AI to write their essays and book reports, skipping critical reading-comprehension time and arriving at adulthood unable to comprehend anything more complex than a menu without asking AI to summarize it.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#235
From a paranoid viewpoint it seems prudent to treat this like an "arms race" and give it the "Manhattan Project" treatment.

Things are moving so fast that someone, somewhere will be working on getting to the next gen in spite of any pause or moratorium. Probably with state sponsorship.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#236
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is known as the orthogonality thesis -- goals are orthogonal to intelligence. Intelligence is the ability to plan and act to achieve your goals, whatever they are. A stupid person can have a goal of helping others, and so can the smartest person on earth -- it's just that one is better. Likewise, a stupid person can have a goal of becoming wealthy, and so can a smart person. The smart person is Jeff Bezos or Bil…

I think that's a subtly different thing. The OPs claim was more or less the paperclip maximizer problem. I contend that a super intelligence given a specific goal by humans would take the context of humans into account and avoid harm because that's the intelligent thing to do - by definition. The orthogonal thesis is about the separation of intelligence from goals. My attitude to that is that a AI might not actually…

Hmm, why would you say that avoiding harm is the intelligent thing to do, by definition?

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#237

Sure let's ban it, only to find out 6 months later that each of these companies simply obscured the development to try and get an edge. oh no! a 5 million(etc.) fine? too bad that's nowhere near how much profit their product will incur. Life goes on.

There's no way these companies could keep such development secret. Too many leakers in the inside.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#239
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean given the current state. The technology is already sufficiently advanced and in so many peoples hands that "stopping" it now is just an exercise in pushing it underground. Only the opposite can be a useful safeguard. Rapid evolution is well underway. Lone individuals are able to push the envelope of what's possible even with just a new basic interop, maybe in an afternoon. It's much too late to be discussing t…

It's almost impossible to tell. Yes, plenty of low hanging fruit around; Heck, I can probably literally ask chatGPT to implement for me a few ideas I've got. OTOH, I've known since secondary school of two distinct ways to make a chemical weapon using only things commonly found in normal kitchens, and absolutely none of the post 9/11 aftershock attacks that got in the news over the next decade did anything remotely so…

Right, it's amazing to me the extent to which people are throwing their hands in there and saying "There's absolutely NOTHING that can be done!!! We must accept the AGIs however they will manifest"...

Clearly, it's a very hard problem with massive uncertainties. But we can take actions that will significantly decrease the risk of utter catastrophe.

I don't even think world-ending catastrophe is that likely. But it seems a real enough possibility that we should take it seriously.

Re: If AI scaling is to be shut down, let it be for a coherent reason

#240
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this 100%, while also disagreeing with the "robot god will kill us all" objections to AI which unfortunately tend to get most of the mindshare. I think it's important to realize that these are two _completely separate_ concerns. Unfortunately, a lot of the people who get the most air time on this topic are not at all worried about authoritarianism or economic collapse compared to a hypothetical singulari…

Personally, I'm worried that if the proponents of LLMs are correct, it will directly lead to authoritarianism and economic collapse.

Who's gonna pay for GPT's in an economic collapse?
Post reply on HN